Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi there:

Well, I went to the all Ohio show, and found the prices amazingly low and the animals amazingly healthy. I was impressed with everything I saw, except for some people sneeking in some regular black rats.
I had the setup waiting for a baby yellow rat snake. There were two at the show. One didn't look the best, and another looked absolutely flawless. He sold for only $40.00. The problem was that it wasn't exactly a baby. It was almost 4 feet long, but I had extra money with me for a new enormous cage like the ones I keep my gopher snake and other large snakes in. That didn't matter.
The snake was sold to me as a hybrid; a yellow rat snake * an Everglades rat snake. It's easy to see where he got the Everglades influence from. He didn't once try to bite, but the powerful snake did hiss. I named him Dutch, because we used my dads German dictionary to hold his transport containers lid down in the hotel room. Dutch tried to strike at me through the plastic a few times, but I don't blame him (His owner had had him his whole life).
I like Dutch a lot, loved the show, and I hope to post some pictures!

DAVE

Glad you liked the show and found a yellow. The 'glades influence should be nice, and still really leaves you with the yellow rat that you were looking for, in my opinion. Any more, it is rare to find a true 'glades in nature, they are mostly mixed back in with their yellow cousins anyway.

As for the black rats: If they were at a table with mostly other black rats (albino, whiteside, etc) they were probably Joliff's and I know he is legit. With proper permits, etc, black rats can still be bought and sold in Ohio. He has some great animals, by the way.

You are right...You can find some great snakes at super prices there. Hope the new snake works out well for you. Duffy

Hi there:

Thanks for the comments. I felt that there was something truly magical about that show. People came from all over to see, and maybe even take home the things that I love. I was delightfully overwhelmed with how many exotic animals, cages and decorations that I saw there. All of the reptile fans holding their favorite pets and making new friends was a wonderful sight, and walking past rows and rows of reptiles, some of which I had only seen in books, made me feel that everything, not just in my life, but in the whole world, was as it should be.
I just held Dutch again, who didn't even give me a second glance. He's a really gentle rat snake. His owner obviously had him for many years. He went to sell him willingly, but almost seemed to change his mind at the last minute. I now have a beautiful snake, and am glad that I got interested in reptiles that seven years ago. It seems like its been forever...

DAVE

Huh, I must have gotten there late, everything cool had already been sold. Except that I got a ringed python and a Brazillian black tarantula.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

Regular Black Rats are allowed to be sold in OH (& @ the show) w/ the proper permits. Congrtas. on your purchase......

I dunno..I have seen and/or collected ratsnakes in South Florida for many years and I still can't digest the idea that there is enough difference between Yellow and Everglades rat Snakes to qualify them for sub-specific status. But that is my opinion.

At the very least a cross between the two variations is definitly Not a Hybrid. That term is bandied around way too much and usually is wrong in it's application. I think the dealer was either ignorant, or trying to make his animal appear more impressive for sale.

To be a Hybrid, there has to (at the very least) be a degree of separation at the Species level. For example; a Red Rat x Yellow rat. The proper usage in this case would be that of "intergrade" since the two forms involved, blend in nature.

That being said..Congradulations on your new snake!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>I dunno..I have seen and/or collected ratsnakes in South Florida for many years and I still can't digest the idea that there is enough difference between Yellow and Everglades rat Snakes to qualify them for sub-specific status. But that is my opinion.
>>
>>At the very least a cross between the two variations is definitly Not a Hybrid. That term is bandied around way too much and usually is wrong in it's application. I think the dealer was either ignorant, or trying to make his animal appear more impressive for sale.
>>
>>To be a Hybrid, there has to (at the very least) be a degree of separation at the Species level. For example; a Red Rat x Yellow rat. The proper usage in this case would be that of "intergrade" since the two forms involved, blend in nature.
>>
>>That being said..Congradulations on your new snake!
>>
>>Frank
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You can't tell the difference between these?
They are approximately the same age.
Yellow Rat:

Everglades Rat:

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Actually the difference (alledged) between an Everglades and a Yellow is based primarely on Tongue color. I have collected very (red) snakes that have qualified for yellow rat and more (orange) that qualify as Everglades. As I said. many years in the field makes me really doubt the legitmacy of sub specific standards. But then from the other thread here I am seeing DNA split things even more fine than what we have here.

Both snakes in your photos could go either way based on tongue color of w/c specimens.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

It is my understanding that the naturally occuring concentrated population of true 'glades rats is all but a thing of the past, having become almost completely mixed with yellow rat blood since the draining of the everglades in their original location.
The fact that they do inter-breed so freely in nature does, indeed, make them more of an intergrade than a hybrid...IMHO.
Sadly, most "pure" strains of 'glades rats are now only found in captivity. Also, for what it's worth, I would personally rather own an intergrade, such as the snake mentioned in this post, than an actual hybrid of two snakes whose ranges do not even overlap. Duffy

Agreed...not a fan of Hybridization. As to the Everglades, the "Red" Everglades that everyone sports around as being the true example was very uncommon back in the mid 70's when I started serious collecting. The more accurate example of the form is the one pictured in Ashton's vol I: Snakes of Florida. And that is not very different from his example of a yellow. I have caught specimens in the Gainesville area that were as orange as your average Everglades.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

In fact some people would ID both snakes as Dekards based on the JUV pattern still being there.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi there:

The snake is doing great and eating well. I plan to take him to a children's presentation. At the show, I saw two yellow/ Everglades intergrades, a baby gray rat, lots of black rat morphs and regulars, a pair of Baird's rat snakes, some Tiger rats and some Indonesian beauty snakes.
Almost all of the snakes there were babies. I still haven't measured Dutch yet, but he was undoubtedly the biggest rat snake there. There was some wierd stuff there! I loved all of the unusual decor and stuff, but for example, who saw the vendor selling all of those multi-colored crayfish or lobsters or whatever they were in individual aquariums?

DAVE