Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone have a guess?
I say probably the western green ratsnake.
Rick

in the U.S. is the baja rat snake. The number of snakes seen or found inside the U.S. border is very small. They're more of a Mexican snake.

I would put a vote in for the Brazos Island Ratsnake. While not a legitimate sbsp (as far as I know) it is definitly rare and unique enough to qualify for this pole.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yea, your right. the baja rat is rarer. I just picked up a pair of green rats and was tripping out, "oh boy, i have some of the rarest snakes around!"...hehe. Forgot about the baja rat.

Rick

>>Yea, your right. the baja rat is rarer. I just picked up a pair of green rats and was tripping out, "oh boy, i have some of the rarest snakes around!"...hehe. Forgot about the baja rat.

Yeah but Rick, you USED to have Baja Rats too. So you can still trip out and say "oh boy, I had some of the rarest snakes around!"

-Dave

Dave, how ya doing? well it must be what i'm smokin...hehe
i still have my baja rats. it's just that i've wanted green rats for so long and i'm so giddy and stoked and, well, you get the picture.
rick

Rick,

If you're talking North America and not just the U. S., then you have to consider Mexico as part of N. A. Senticolis triaspis is not a rare snake, in Mexico, or in the U. S. Dozens are found in AZ alone every year. I know one person who found seven just in one mtn. range this year.

Baja California is part of Mexico, but is still part of N. A. I still think the Baja Rat would be the rarest ratsnake found and possibly the rarest in the wild.

As far as the Brazos Island Ratsnake goes, that is just a morph, not a subspecies or species. It is an Eastern morph of Pantherophis guttata meahllmorum. I wouldn't consider it a ratsnake in its own right. Of course, you might think that is just a technicality. If so, then we might get into some of the ratsnakes in the Keys of Florida.

Another condidate for rarest North American ratsnake could be the Eastern Fox Snake, Pantherophis gloydi. Since they have lost the majority of their habitat, in an already very small range, they are in jeopardy of extinction. One can always find one or two in several locales where they are still common, but you have to admit, places like those in Toledo, OH, aren't going to be around forever, and aren't very big.

Terry

>>Anyone have a guess?
>>I say probably the western green ratsnake.
>>Rick

Ok....Terry I am confused....What is P.g. meahllmorum? Their not using emoryi anymore? Man...all these changes in genus etc...is wreaking havoc on my library.........

I but considered that option (including locality types) when evaluating this. But the Keys Rats are commonly c/b for sale here (S. Fla) and no one discarted captive pops as an option, so they aren't that rare if you include that.

That's why I mentioned the Brazos. Have only seen 2 here period, and that was three years ago.

But in all you just broke my heart Terry. I just sold a female Baja rat last month....(if I'd only known)

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Haha...Frank, I'm so sorry. I'd love the Brazos Island Rat to be the rarest, but just had to throw some limits in there. Obviously, the original question could have been interpreted a dozen different ways.

BTW, there are quite a few B.I.R's out there. I have several myself...

A very cool snake too. The Brazos is part of the Pantherophis guttata meahllmorum 'complex'. This is the southern subspecies of the Great Plains ratsnake. I often call them, Northern Great Plains Rat and Southern Great Plains Rat. The current taxonomy has all the corns and Emory's in one species, "guttata". It also has several ssps...guttata, slowinskii, emoryi, and meahllmorum. I wouldn't mind the Great Plains ratsnake being a separate sps., but we need someone to publish the changes and make it happen in scientific circles.

So, the Brazos Island ratsnake is P. g. meahllmorum, a ssps that extends from south of Brazos Is. to West TX and north into Colorado. I wish we could say it was a rare snake, good buddy, but it's just a color morph. As a color/pattern morph, it's pretty rare. Heck, I don't know what the rules are, so how would I know which is the rarest...LOL!

TC

>>Ok....Terry I am confused....What is P.g. meahllmorum? Their not using emoryi anymore? Man...all these changes in genus etc...is wreaking havoc on my library.........
>>
>>I but considered that option (including locality types) when evaluating this. But the Keys Rats are commonly c/b for sale here (S. Fla) and no one discarted captive pops as an option, so they aren't that rare if you include that.
>>
>>That's why I mentioned the Brazos. Have only seen 2 here period, and that was three years ago.
>>
>>But in all you just broke my heart Terry. I just sold a female Baja rat last month....(if I'd only known)
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Ok....Then I'm assuming that the "splitters" have been at it again. Is this is another one (meahllmorum) of those DNA splits like with slowinski? Or is there any visually (scalation pattern etc..) observable differences that separate them?

I pulled out my books (I have a big library)and for the life of me I cannot see enough visual critteria to justify a Northern and Southern emoryi that would not also justify a similar split to the Brazos emoryi as well.

(I think the lab boys have gone over the edge here.)

I remember a world where external differences (color, pattern, scale count) separated species...I don't know that I care for this new system that makes your snakes ID a matter of having to pay for a DNA sample to be tested.

As I come from an area where both ratsnakes P.guttata and P. obsoleta are both split into two or more sbsps (depending on observable external differences) and at that are even within their own sbsps quite a lot more variable than the P.emoryi-meahllmorum split, the chance for for further confusion is readily availble. Could we see Southern and Northern P. guttata sbsps? Could there be perhaps a sbsps split in P.g.g. between the Okeetee and the Miami Phases? And what about that little population of natural Anery's? They are, after all...distinctive.

My point is that the criteria for DNA seperation is questionable as to degree. External differences translate to differences in DNA, so where do you decide which charactoristics seperate one sbsps from another?

Confusing.......

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Ok....Then I'm assuming that the "splitters" have been at it again. Is this is another one (meahllmorum) of those DNA splits like with slowinski? Or is there any visually (scalation pattern etc..) observable differences that separate them?
>>

***Frank, at the risk of getting wordy again, I went looking for an article that I got a copy of about a year, or so, ago. "A Reevaluation of Populations of the Corn Snake "Elaphe guttata" (Reptilia: Serpentes: Colubridae) in Texas", by R. Kathryn Vaughan, James R. Dixon, and Robert A. Thomas, 1996. This is the literature I've been referring to when talking about P. guttata, as including ssps. guttata, emoryi, slowinskii, and meahllmorum.

In the introduction it's stated that, "Thomas (1974), after detailed analysis of morphological traits, suggested that all Texas 'E. guttata' belonged to the race 'E. guttata emoryi'. Smith et al. (1994) analyzed similar characters and suggested that Texas 'E. guttata' represented two races, 'E. guttata emoryi' and a new subspecies 'E. guttata meahllmorum'.

Smith based his analysis mostly on number of body blotches, not at all on genetics. Vaughan et al. based their analysis on number of dorsal body and tail blotches, number of ventrals and subcaudals, and degree of ventral pigmentation, again not on dna. Vaughan et al. verified Smith's two subspecies, 'emoryi' and 'meahllmorum', and also added 'guttata' in E. Texas.

I understand that Vaughan is still doing research on these guttata ssps. and I'm looking forward to her next publication. Maybe in her next article there will be some genetic data, and possibly even more refinement of the species.

>>I pulled out my books (I have a big library)and for the life of me I cannot see enough visual critteria to justify a Northern and Southern emoryi that would not also justify a similar split to the Brazos emoryi as well.
>>
>>I think the lab boys have gone over the edge here.)
>>

***Frank, I think that the Brazos Island Ratsnake is a little more colorful and has a little prettier pattern, but has very similar scale counts, etc, as more typical 'meahllmorum'.

>>I remember a world where external differences (color, pattern, scale count) separated species...I don't know that I care for this new system that makes your snakes ID a matter of having to pay for a DNA sample to be tested.
>>

***I tend to agree with you and think that dna testing needs to be refined, and also that genetics should only be used together with morphological characteristics to define a species or subspecies.

>>As I come from an area where both ratsnakes P.guttata and P. obsoleta are both split into two or more sbsps (depending on observable external differences) and at that are even within their own sbsps quite a lot more variable than the P.emoryi-meahllmorum split, the chance for for further confusion is readily availble. Could we see Southern and Northern P. guttata sbsps? Could there be perhaps a sbsps split in P.g.g. between the Okeetee and the Miami Phases? And what about that little population of natural Anery's? They are, after all...distinctive.
>>

***Good point. Subspecies are somewhat subjective and questioned by some people, obviously. But I don't think they ever are classified based on color/pattern, w/o other criteria, like scalation (except maybe in the old days). I doubt that mutations, like anery or amelanistic will ever classify a snake.

>>My point is that the criteria for DNA seperation is questionable as to degree. External differences translate to differences in DNA, so where do you decide which charactoristics seperate one sbsps from another?
>>
>>Confusing.......
>>
>>Frank
>>-----

***Good point about genetics..one that I've made myself several times in the past. I don't like classification based on genetics solely, especially when it could be just one, possibly trivial gene. Again, genetics needs to be refined, as far as I'm concerned. But in combination with other characteristics, there are useful advances in taxonomy being made.

Terry

>>I pulled out my books (I have a big library)and for the life of me I cannot see enough visual critteria to justify a Northern and Southern emoryi that would not also justify a similar split to the Brazos emoryi as well.
>>

***One problem with the Brazos is that it can be confused with ratsnakes from all over s. TX.

I remember when I first heard about the Brazos Island Ratsnake, and saw a series of pictures posted by Gus Renfro. I was immediately captivated by the beauty of those little "guttata", supposedly from a little island on the Gulf Coast of Texas near the border with Mexico. The pattern was reduced to H-like blotches and almost to the point of being separated into two dorsal stripes. The ground color was very light tan/brown and the blotches slightly darker, almost greenish/brown. I ended up buying a trio from another breeder, but it was much later, and I didn't get ones that looked like the originals.

Since that time I've talked to other enthusiasts and have found that there are many other counties in s. TX and coastal TX, that have guttata which look similar to the Brazos Island Ratsnake. But they aren't the really cool look that the original Brazos had. The problem is that they are enough alike, just like the Miami corn is a look and doesn't have to be from Miami, the guttata in other places can get passed off as Brazos Island Rats. My question is, "Where are the true Brazos Island Rats, and does anyone still market snakes that are actually from Brazos Island?"

TC