Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thank you, OH!

You're correct, C. serpentis is the culprit here; I simply had my head screwed on backwards, when I wrote that post.
You did validate another point though, and since it is C. parvum, which is present in virtually all surface water, including those used as municipal water supplies, and not C. serpentis, then where is the C. serpentis coming from?
It is my understanding that C. serpentis is found in every species of reptile, with the exception of crocodilians, in nominal levels. While such levels are typically nominal, what happens when a captive specimen, with a nominal level of C. serpentis, defecates into the water bowl, and such is only changed on a weekly basis?
Given the environmental conditions within the enclosure of a properly maintained Drymarchon and a surface water source sitting within that enclosure for a week, or even a few days, and you have the perfect environment for a Cryptosporidiosis epidemic.
There was mention recently, that Naja spp. are known for their resistance to Cryptosporidium, though it has been my experience, Naja kauthia are quite susceptible to Cryptosporidiosis infestations, and will succumb quickly to such.
Also, we have discussed this before, but there is a promising treatment for C. serpentis. Graczyk, Cranfield and Bostwick have been conducting studies regarding the use of hyperimmune bovine colostrums treatment, utilizing Varanus exanthematicus infected with Cryptosporidium sp. at the Department of Molecular microbiology and Immunology, School of Hygiene and Public Health, Johns Hopkins University.
They have developed a therapy based on the protective passive immunity of HBC, and have applied such to four specimens of Varanus exanthematicus with gastric Cryptosporidium sp. infections.
The study showed a decrease in the numbers of oocysts after the first three of seven gastric HBC treatments administered one week intervals. Neither feces or lavages of the HBC treated monitors contained Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts after completion of HBC therapy, whereas the single control specimen remained positive for oocysts.
While the above study does not indicate such treatments would prove successful with Drymarchon, it does show some promise in this area.
Personally, I use tap water, in both my personal collection and academic collection at the University of Arkansas. I am also aware that Florida State University and Columbia University use tap water as well, as do the majority of US zoological entities. However, all are cleaned and filled on a daily basis at minimum.

Regards,

Jeff

>>Thank you, OH!
>>
>>You're correct, C. serpentis is the culprit here; I simply had my head screwed on backwards, when I wrote that post.
>>You did validate another point though, and since it is C. parvum, which is present in virtually all surface water, including those used as municipal water supplies, and not C. serpentis, then where is the C. serpentis coming from?
>>It is my understanding that C. serpentis is found in every species of reptile, with the exception of crocodilians, in nominal levels. While such levels are typically nominal, what happens when a captive specimen, with a nominal level of C. serpentis, defecates into the water bowl, and such is only changed on a weekly basis?
>>Given the environmental conditions within the enclosure of a properly maintained Drymarchon and a surface water source sitting within that enclosure for a week, or even a few days, and you have the perfect environment for a Cryptosporidiosis epidemic.
>>There was mention recently, that Naja spp. are known for their resistance to Cryptosporidium, though it has been my experience, Naja kauthia are quite susceptible to Cryptosporidiosis infestations, and will succumb quickly to such.
>>Also, we have discussed this before, but there is a promising treatment for C. serpentis. Graczyk, Cranfield and Bostwick have been conducting studies regarding the use of hyperimmune bovine colostrums treatment, utilizing Varanus exanthematicus infected with Cryptosporidium sp. at the Department of Molecular microbiology and Immunology, School of Hygiene and Public Health, Johns Hopkins University.
>>They have developed a therapy based on the protective passive immunity of HBC, and have applied such to four specimens of Varanus exanthematicus with gastric Cryptosporidium sp. infections.
>>The study showed a decrease in the numbers of oocysts after the first three of seven gastric HBC treatments administered one week intervals. Neither feces or lavages of the HBC treated monitors contained Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts after completion of HBC therapy, whereas the single control specimen remained positive for oocysts.
>>While the above study does not indicate such treatments would prove successful with Drymarchon, it does show some promise in this area.
>>Personally, I use tap water, in both my personal collection and academic collection at the University of Arkansas. I am also aware that Florida State University and Columbia University use tap water as well, as do the majority of US zoological entities. However, all are cleaned and filled on a daily basis at minimum.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I am aware of the HBC studies that are presently ongoing. I tried HBC therapy in the single confirmed case of reptilian Cryptosporidiosis
that I have seen, which was a White-lipped Python about a year ago and a half ago. Unfortunately, the snake was in a very weak and dehydrated condition before it was turned over to me and it died after only two treatments despite aggressive supportive therapy. There was a relatively high concentration of oocysts in the initial stomach lavage and upon post-mortem examination of stomach tissue, there was still a high concentration after two treatments. I used an oil-immersion light microscope and acid-fast staining procedures, since I can't afford the equipment for IFA. This snake was from a Florida wholesaler and had apparently been held in close contact with a number of other animals for some time before it was shipped. It arrived to the pet store from which I acquired it in an advanced stage of the disease, the characteristic hard mid-body swelling was already present and the animal had not fed for the pet store. Unfortunately, this was not an adequate opportunity for the therapy to work and it's likely to be a while before I see another infected animal. If treatment for other coccidians, such as Eimeria sp. (Sulfadimethezone) is any yardstick, I would say that a minimum of 7 treatments would be warranted if the treatment is effective. That's about the average number of treatments required in my experience for Sulfas to eliminate them.

You are absolutely correct in that the water bowl is a perfect culturing medium for crypto as well as other coccidians. When an infected animal defecates in its water bowl, then the culture begins. Replication rates for Cryptosporidium sp are about the same as for other coccidians, that is, rapid in a suitable environment. When the animal then drinks from that water bowl, it ingests more oocysts and compounds the infestation that was already present. This will also occur in damp substrate. This is one of the reasons I argued for periodic disinfecting of cages, water bowls and cage furniture in a previous thread where it was suggested that disinfecting may be unecessary. Another reason is opportunistic pathogens that may cause infections should the animal receive a minor injury.

I also saw the post that claims that Asiatic Cobras may be immune to Crypto to one degree or another, and in the same breath mentioned that Indigos may have an immunity also because they are snake-eaters. That post confused me somewhat because it inferred that Naja naja sp are ophiophagous snakes, which I have not really found to be that case. I intended to respond to that specific point for clarification and forgot to do so. In the response that I did make, I said that it makes a certain amount of sense to me that ophiophagous snakes (or reptile eaters in general) would possibly have some level of immunity to C.serpentis, although I am not clear on exactly how that immunity would be passed from parent to offspring since reptiles do not pass antibodies to their offspring the way mammals do (in colostrum). I have not seen it demonstrated that antibodies are passed in the eggs either, only that the eggs are pathogen-free and the neonates are gut-sterile at hatching. As far as I know, reptiles build their immunities to specific pathogens through contact with the environment and prey items and normal exposure to the pathogens.

Cheers,
Gerald
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Jeff and Gerald,

I doubt that crypto could grow in a water bowl. The study of Cryptosporidium has been greatly hampered in laboratories because it is extremely difficult to culture in vitro, that is outside of a living organism. The Cryptosporidium organism is extremely simple, somewhere between a bacterium and a virus. It does not have the ability to live on simple culture media like most bacteria do. The living cells in the stomach of the animals it infects somehow play a large role in its replication and growth.

For years, antibodies to crypto could not be raised in a lab, because the organism could not be grown outside an animal. Recently, genetic engineering has begun to solve this problem. There is one lab I know of that has been able to immunize calfs to crypto by isolating and multiplying crypto DNA, then artificially making non-infective crypto proteins from the knowledge of the DNA coding sequences. They are currently trying to market the crypto vaccine, as crypto causes huge losses to the cattle industry.

Even though the vaccine is toward mammalian crypto, I would try it in my snakes if I thought crypto was a problem in my collection. There is likely to be cross-reactivity between the reptilian and mammalian forms, if past scientific history repeats.

That brings me to the next topic, outward symptomology. There is a nice section on reptile crypto in Mader's book on reptile veterinary science. I hope I am remembering properly as I have tried to find this print of mine and I haven't so far. There is a major zoo in the U.S. that did a careful study on crypto in their captive bred population of snakes and found that something like fifty percent of their animals were carrying crypto and would cyclically pass cysts in their feces. These animals had no outward symptoms at all. No hard stomach lump or swelling. That is why I posted my suggestion about using Ball Pythons as an assay technique. They are extremely sensitive and virtually always show a hard mid-body swelling when infected with crypto. We could use these animals to confirm or deny the presence of crypto in our collections.

Anyways, if any of my easterns have crypto, I at least haven't ever seen this mid body swelling or stomach lump.

In response to Jeff's question, crypto would by necessity need to be spread from snake to snake, certainly not likely to be passed through tap water, although if mammalian crypto is in tap water, I'm sure there must be at least some reptilian form in tap water. I guess it at least doesn't hurt to use RO water. People afraid of insufficiencies of calcium should make sure their animals get enough in their diets. This just requires that our animals ingest some bone. I feed my snakes mostly chicken necks, and even though they have a lot of bone, I dust them in bone meal for good measure (actually, the reason I do this is primarily to make the chicken necks less sticky so that they won't pick up bits of bedding that the snake might ingest).

Finally, I believe that I may be wrong about my attestation of cobras being immune to crypto. I have dug through my literature and can't find a reference to this. I did find a reference to cobras being resistant to amoebiasis, thought to be an adaptation to eating snakes, although that makes less sense to me than crypto. See pg 59, Understanding Reptile Parasites, RJ Klingenberg, author. This may be where I misgenerated my memory. Oldherper, you know, even young herpers can have memory failures.

Robert Bruce.

Robert,

There was no mention of Crypto "growing" within the confines of the water bowl, and actually, Crypto is quite easily cultured within the lab, utilizing feces demonstrating oocysts and water, we do this all of the time here at UAMS, though Crypto is quite difficult to produce utilizing most of the sterile culture mediums typically used for such.
The post referred top the belief that almost every reptile harbors Crypto, and as you are aware, most prefer to defecate within the confines of their water bowls, those which don't, will at least have some form of phyical contact with the waste within their enclosure, and will come into contact with the standing source of water.
Now, I must ask you; If standing water is not a conducive medium for Crypto, then why is such considered a water borne pathogen, and common in all sources of surface water, including tap water in several areas?

Best regards,

Jeff

Brings to mind a question that’s been troubling me for awhile, if reptilian crypto is specific to reptiles how would they get it from mice, its a different crypto that infects mice isn't it, yet I've read that’s a source of infection.

There have been over (20) species of Cryptosporidium described, though only six – eight species (C. felis, C. muris, C. parvum and C. wrairi in mammals, C. baileyi, and C. meleagridis in birds, C. serpentis in reptiles, and C. nasorum in fish) have been considered valid species, by most researchers, though the validity of these six – eight have recently come under fire.
A joint study completed by the CDC, Murdoch University, Instituto Venezolano de Investigaciones Cientificas, Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine and the U.S, Department of Agriculture indicates there are perhaps only four valid species of Cryptosporidium, though research is still ongoing.
It is believed the validity of the six-eight species of Cryptosporidium currently though to be valid species doesn’t add up, as genetic analysis fails to support their classification as separate species.
The study demonstrated that when sequenced complete small subunit (SSU) rRNA genes of various Cryptosporidium isolates are used in phylogenetic analysis, Cryptosporidium parasites are a multi-species complex containing approximately four species.
This could very well change, as C. felis C. meleagridis and C. nasorum have yet to undergo such testing.
This could explain the appearance of various Cryptosporidium species in a variety of host species.

Jeff

>>Brings to mind a question that’s been troubling me for awhile, if reptilian crypto is specific to reptiles how would they get it from mice, its a different crypto that infects mice isn't it, yet I've read that’s a source of infection.

To my knowledge, mammalian crypto (C.parvus) has not been shown to produce clinical symptoms in reptiles. As a matter of fact, nearly every mammal-eating reptile will harbor some level of C.parvus.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

O.K., then I give up. I am at a total loss of ideas on how my snake got crypto. And now I am not even sure if I was told the truth from my vet. What can I do to find out for sure. The vet still has the body, and organs. If there is anyone out there who can take that, and give me an absolute, definate answere, I would like to know. Until I know for sure, I will not be able to formulate a sound plan of action. If there is anyone out there with the expertise and the right eqipment, please contact me, and we will work something out. This is really starting to bug me. Thanks,
T.
-----
"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

>>Robert,
>>
>>There was no mention of Crypto "growing" within the confines of the water bowl, and actually, Crypto is quite easily cultured within the lab, utilizing feces demonstrating oocysts and water, we do this all of the time here at UAMS, though Crypto is quite difficult to produce utilizing most of the sterile culture mediums typically used for such.
>>The post referred top the belief that almost every reptile harbors Crypto, and as you are aware, most prefer to defecate within the confines of their water bowls, those which don't, will at least have some form of phyical contact with the waste within their enclosure, and will come into contact with the standing source of water.
>>Now, I must ask you; If standing water is not a conducive medium for Crypto, then why is such considered a water borne pathogen, and common in all sources of surface water, including tap water in several areas?
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Jeff

That's exactly my point. In the wild, the snake would simply shed those oocysts in his feces and move on, never coming into contact with them again. In this way, the level of crypto oocysts present in his digestive tract would be self limiting. When the snake defecates in his water bowl, shedding oocysts, then drinks the water he re-ingests some of those oocysts. Meanwhile the ones that were still present in his digestive system have been replicating, but every time he sheds oocysts, he reingests some of them compounding the number of oocysts present at any time in his digestive system.
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Jeff,

Earlier in this thread, "oldherper" responded to a post of yours with statements to the like of "the water bowl is a perfect culturing medium for crypto" and "when a reptile with crypto defecates into the water bowl, the culture begins." Since culture means replication and growth, this is where I interpreted that there was a belief that crypto would grow in water bowls. I responded that I doubted that this would occur.

My understanding has been that crypto needs to be embedded in the living tissue of a host animal in order to grow and replicate. My understanding has also been that laboratories have had an enormously difficult time trying to obtain growth and replication of crypto outside a host animal. This is why I responded that I doubted that crypto would grow in a water bowl.

I have also had the understanding that the encysted, unattached form of Cryptosporidium is what is released via the feces into the environment, in order to complete the pathogenic life cycle (and infect other animals that were uninfected to begin with). The crypto cyst must be kept moist in order to stay alive. My understanding is that crypto cysts will stay alive about 3 months in a refrigerator when moist, and dark. This time would be shortened at room temperature, to something like 3 weeks.

This is why, as I understand it, that contaminated water can be an infective agent. Not that the organism replicates in the water, but that it can be transmitted from host to host via water. The host either defecates directly into the water supply, or rain washes moist fecal material into it.

I saw Tony briefly touch on the subject of drying as a method to eliminate crypto. This is exactly what is done in the cattle industry. Calves are routinely moved from one holding area to another, and the location where they were is dried out in sunlight. This kills the crypto present and enables the site to be used again to hold uninfected calves. It is the drying, and not the light, as I understand, that kills the cysts. What this also means is that if your cage walls are dry, then they are not an agent of infection, even if previously contaminated with fecal material. Disinfection of the dry cage walls would be unnecessary and redundant (for crypto).

If UAMS and other universities have successfully cultured crypto in a feces-water mixture (growth and reproduction would be necessary for this statement to be true), then I have simply been unaware of it, and that is quite possible. I will research this and attempt to understand it better. I don't believe however, that any epidemiologist thinks that cryptosporidium is growing and replicating in our water supplies. The conventional thought is that the growth and replication occurs within the host animal. The water clearly can serve as an agent for transmission from host to host, and this is my understanding of the commonly held belief.

You deny stating that crypto would grow in a water bowl (oldherper made that statement), but then you claim that feces and water are a conventional medium used by labs to culture crypto in. This indicates to me that you do believe that crypto would grow in a water bowl, if feces were present. It seems to me that you are unclear about your position here.

Anyways, Jeff, you know that I have enormous respect for you, and that I consider you to be one of the worlds foremost experts on Drymarchon, and other snakes. I hope I haven't stepped on your toes in any way.

Robert Bruce.

I stand by my position that a feces contaminated water bowl is a good culture medium for many different bacterial pathogens. I don't think anyone has shown that crypto cannot grow and replicate in this environment. The oocysts that are shed by the snake in the feces are, in a sense, viable eggs. What is to keep them from hatching into reproductive, infective Crytosporidium organisms in the water bowl? Even if they don't replicate in the water bowl, you still have a cocktail of all sorts of bacteria including the shed oocysts and any Cryptosporidium organism that may have come from those. The snake will drink from that bowl. He doesn't know any better. Even if you empty the water bowl, rinse it and wipe it out with a paper towel, you will not eliminate all of the bacteria in the bowl. You can rinse the bowl with water, wipe it down, the immediately swab it and examine what you recover under a microscope and you will find that there are still lots of bacteria there. I read that you said that you could remove 99% of the bacteria by simply wiping down the cage or bowl or whatever with a wet paper towel. That may be true, but you have to remember that the mumbers of bacteria present before you do that may be in the hundreds of millions. That means you leave a few million live bacteria behind to replicate. If you simply disinfected first you would be leaving a few million dead bacteria behind (that won't replicate) and very few live ones. Wiping with a paper towel simply does not effectively remove the bacteria. There is no way to make a snake cage absolutely sterile and still keep a living snake in it, but I prefer to come as close as I can to it. No matter how hard you try, you are still going to have pathogens present, but you can keep the numbers down. If you don't disinfect, it a cinch that you are going to have lots of them.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Gerald, "oldherper,"

I am probably being a pest with this response to your previous post. But, accepting the label of pest for now, here goes.

You have been suggesting the need for frequent disinfection, and you and I have had an interesting discussion on this forum about this. In your previous post, you extend your disinfection philosophy to the water bowl of the snake and suggest that it is important to do this in order to mediate reinfection of the animal by Cryptosporidium.

You also acknowledge, in another post, that ammonia is the only disinfectant known to kill crypto. This is my understanding as well. In fact, as I understand it, only concentrated ammonia will work, and there must be an exposure period of at least several minutes. The strength of ammonia solution necessary to kill crypto is equivalent to using concentrated ammonia, directly from the bottle, with no dilution.

For you to be practicing what you preach, you must be disinfecting your water bowls with undiluted, concentrated ammonia, directly from the bottle, and allowing the bowls to remain in contact with the ammonia for several minutes, then rinsing them.

I know that I am being a pest. But, I have never known anyone who did this, nor could do this. The fumes from concentrated ammonia are so intense that they will burn your nose, throat, and eyes, and cause you to go running from the house in severe pain. You may easily end up in the hospital, with respiratory failure, heart arrythmia, and severe burns/bleeding to the mucous membranes of your sinuses and throat.

This ammonia disinfection could be done in a laboratory fume hood, or outdoors in a stiff wind (you being upwind, of course). Gloves would still be required. If this is what you are doing, my sincere apologies.

Sorry again to be a pest,

Robert Bruce.

I don't think you are being a pest, perhaps bordering on beligerent but not pesky (but I am not speaking on Gerald's behalf)...however, I, too, will oftentimes spray pure ammonia on cages that have come in where I am not familiar with where they came from (outside). All incoming animals go through a 6 month quarantine process and multiple fecal exams. Water bowls, etc. are soaked in ammonia, then bleach, and then a srubbing with quatricide pv by Pharmacal...a little excessive but so far, it has worked well for the past 20 years.

I personally feel the mechanization of running water in accompanyment of a good disinfectent like quatricide pv is going to suffice for 99.9% of the folks (heck, even diluted bleach will do the job in most cases but I personally don't like it as much). Will it kill crypto?...no, but the running water helps eliminate residue where bacteria/viruses can adhere to. Any snake that was known to die from crypto has its cage and furnishings tossed....I personally don't like to take any chances (but thankfully, this has only happened one time in the 20 years of professional herp experience that I have encountered. I have been reading the many threads and I think that there has been a lot of fuss and unneeded worriness passed on to the many snake owners out there. yes, it is real and something we should all be concerned about, however, if you keep your animals clean, provide the proper temps, change their water daily w/a good water source (and there's no doubt in my mind that crypto can be spread via a water bowl...no doubt whatsoever), feed a quality diet (I personally feel that feeding chicken necks is a terrible practice and I could never imagine feeding my indigos such an inferior diet, supplement regularly but sparingly (assuming they are getting a whole animal diet), and manage stress levels, MOST indigos will never have a health related problem. Just my .02.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL 60045

Dear Rob,

My feeling is that, to prevent water bowls acting as an agent to "spread" crypto, that each animal/cage should have its own water bowl. The cage and water bowl should be tended to one at a time, so that the water bowls don't rotate from cage to cage.

That means, clean a snake's cage, wash the water bowl, and finish that cage, before moving to a new cage. That way, one cage's water bowl won't end up in another cage (I personally don't do this daily though, I think that is overkill).

I imagine that you and most others do this already. But I thought I would mention this so that those who have not thought about this matter would consider it.

Regarding the "terrible" manner in which I feed my animals, I am certainly open to your advice. One thing I do though is, every two to four weeks, I put a hole deep into the chicken necks with an ice punch and insert a Gelcap containing cod liver oil. This provides the snakes with vitamins A and D, that they would obtain from the liver of the whole animal. Jeff ("epidemic"gave me this suggestion. My snakes seem to be healthy, strong, and capable of reproduction.

We ought to start a new topic/thread about the diet and proper feeding of Indigo snakes. I am sure there are many varied opinions on this. I will do this in a day or two.

Take care, Robert Bruce.

I don't know where that ridiculous happy face came from. Is this some sort of virus or something?

RB.

>>Dear Rob,
>>
>>My feeling is that, to prevent water bowls acting as an agent to "spread" crypto, that each animal/cage should have its own water bowl. The cage and water bowl should be tended to one at a time, so that the water bowls don't rotate from cage to cage.
>>
>>That means, clean a snake's cage, wash the water bowl, and finish that cage, before moving to a new cage. That way, one cage's water bowl won't end up in another cage (I personally don't do this daily though, I think that is overkill).
>>
>>I imagine that you and most others do this already. But I thought I would mention this so that those who have not thought about this matter would consider it.
>>
>>Regarding the "terrible" manner in which I feed my animals, I am certainly open to your advice. One thing I do though is, every two to four weeks, I put a hole deep into the chicken necks with an ice punch and insert a Gelcap containing cod liver oil. This provides the snakes with vitamins A and D, that they would obtain from the liver of the whole animal. Jeff ("epidemic"gave me this suggestion. My snakes seem to be healthy, strong, and capable of reproduction.
>>
>>We ought to start a new topic/thread about the diet and proper feeding of Indigo snakes. I am sure there are many varied opinions on this. I will do this in a day or two.
>>
>>Take care, Robert Bruce.

Each of my cages have a number. That number is also written with permanent marker on the water bowls and hides. That way I never transfer bowls or hides form one cage to another.
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>Dear Gerald, "oldherper,"
>>
>>I am probably being a pest with this response to your previous post. But, accepting the label of pest for now, here goes.
>>
>>You have been suggesting the need for frequent disinfection, and you and I have had an interesting discussion on this forum about this. In your previous post, you extend your disinfection philosophy to the water bowl of the snake and suggest that it is important to do this in order to mediate reinfection of the animal by Cryptosporidium.
>>
>>You also acknowledge, in another post, that ammonia is the only disinfectant known to kill crypto. This is my understanding as well. In fact, as I understand it, only concentrated ammonia will work, and there must be an exposure period of at least several minutes. The strength of ammonia solution necessary to kill crypto is equivalent to using concentrated ammonia, directly from the bottle, with no dilution.
>>
>>For you to be practicing what you preach, you must be disinfecting your water bowls with undiluted, concentrated ammonia, directly from the bottle, and allowing the bowls to remain in contact with the ammonia for several minutes, then rinsing them.
>>
>>I know that I am being a pest. But, I have never known anyone who did this, nor could do this. The fumes from concentrated ammonia are so intense that they will burn your nose, throat, and eyes, and cause you to go running from the house in severe pain. You may easily end up in the hospital, with respiratory failure, heart arrythmia, and severe burns/bleeding to the mucous membranes of your sinuses and throat.
>>
>>This ammonia disinfection could be done in a laboratory fume hood, or outdoors in a stiff wind (you being upwind, of course). Gloves would still be required. If this is what you are doing, my sincere apologies.
>>
>>Sorry again to be a pest,
>>
>>Robert Bruce.

Robert,
Those are all good questions and you are not being a pest (at least not to me).

Yes, I practice what I preach. That's not to say I never have a dirty cage, but they don't stay that way.

I think one of the big misunderstandings is that you have to use household ammonia. Household ammonia in an enclosed environment like a snake room can be dangerous. Also, if you use bleach and household ammonia (as some people do sometimes), it can be a deadly combination. Quaternary ammonia preparations work as well. I use Roccal-D. It is a veterinary disinfectant solution with Quaternary Ammonia. I leave the Roccal on for at least 15 minutes before I rinse and dry the cage or cage fixture. I also use non-porous water bowls, such as stainless steel. or slick plastic or glass. I do not use the decorative stone-look water bowls because they are porous and can "hide" bacteria in the pores.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson