Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Wow, I was gone for a few days, can't beleive all the stuff I missed! I am wondering what everyone has to say about the use of vinigar to clean cages with. I have been told that it kills evrything, including crypto, and is safe to use for snakes. Is this true?

And Robert, thanks for all the good info., sorry I went off the deep end. I will get those answeres from the vet. I still don't know what to think of this whole crypto thing. Who knows maybe we will get it all figured out. I thought I had the answeres to all the questions about this case, but now,...who knows.

Also, what, if anything would be wrong with useing RO water only, and putting an occaisional sprinkle of repti-cal on a food item to make up for the loss of calcium, and minerals in the water? I have a well, and the water quality is poor. It is heavy with minerals, and it has not been tested for any bacteria. The state will test it, but they won't tell you what's in it as far as bacteria. They just say safe, or unsafe.

And I have a female eastern with a slightly swolen, and inflamed cloaca, {or butt, as I call it}. Not sure yet how that happened, but it happened before I got her. Anyway, what should I put on it? Thanks,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

On your female Indigo...is there soft tissue protuding from the cloaca? If there is, this is a condition called Cloacal Prolapse. This can be life-threatening and warrants an immediate trip to the vet. That tissue is the end of her bowel. If it dries out and becomes necrotic, without treatment she will eventually die. I would not risk trying to treat it yourself.

And..vinegar will not kill crypto. Chlorine bleach won't kill crypto. The only disinfectant proven to kill crypto is ammonia.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

A few months ago I probed one of my adult females, as I realized that I had never sexed her before (I was assuming her sex from the person who sold her to me as a hatchling). I must have not been careful enough sliding the vent scale back with my thumb. The vent scale soon became wrinkled, drier looking, depressed in the middle, and almost like it was slightly peeling off at the edges. The cloacal tissue was somewhat more exposed. I put some neosporin on the scale and over the vent, and she is fine now, after a shed.

Prolapse should look something like a sock being turned inside out. I don't doubt what Oldherper said. But, the person who sold the animal to you may have probed her just before, and may have not been gentle enough. If that is it, I wouldn't spend the money on a vet.

Robert Bruce.

>>A few months ago I probed one of my adult females, as I realized that I had never sexed her before (I was assuming her sex from the person who sold her to me as a hatchling). I must have not been careful enough sliding the vent scale back with my thumb. The vent scale soon became wrinkled, drier looking, depressed in the middle, and almost like it was slightly peeling off at the edges. The cloacal tissue was somewhat more exposed. I put some neosporin on the scale and over the vent, and she is fine now, after a shed.
>>
>>Prolapse should look something like a sock being turned inside out. I don't doubt what Oldherper said. But, the person who sold the animal to you may have probed her just before, and may have not been gentle enough. If that is it, I wouldn't spend the money on a vet.
>>
>>Robert Bruce.

That may very well be the case. I didn't think about that possibility. When I hear that a snake has a "sore butt" and an inference that bowel tissue may be hanging out, I think prolapse. If the bowel tissue is not fully exposed, that is if it's still inside and you can just see it by looking in past the cloacal scute, then perhaps all it needs it some Neosporin and a little time. If the bowel tissue is out of the vent and exposed, then the snake needs to go to a vet....soon.

One way to prevent that happening due to probing is to use the probe tip itself to open the vent. If you lay the probe tip across the caudal scale just posterior to the cloacal scute and press downward slightly, then just slide the probe tip under the cloacal scute and pivot it toward the tail while maintaining a slight downward pressure there's no need to manually open the vent with your thumbnail.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yes, this is exactly what I taught myself to do after this problem. I slide the lubricated probe under the vent scale from the side, at a right angle to the snake. Then, keeping the tip of the probe in position for probing, I rotate the uninserted end of the probe (that I am holding) toward the anterior or front end of the animal. This pushes the vent scale back, and makes it unnecessary for me to do this with my thumb.

I did want to add, I used the soft pad of my thumb, not my thumbnail, to attempt to move the vent scale back, when I caused the injury originally. The idea of using a thumbnail makes me cringe.

Robert Bruce.

She went to the vet today, just to be safe, and the vet said it's not a cloacal prolaps, it's just that the edge of the vent scale is curled under for some reason, and that leaves a small section of the cloaca exposed. She said it will probably sraighten itself out with a couple sheds. No worries mate.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Dear Tony,

I have occasionally seen this in my animals.

I don't like to leave the scale like this. Have you seen the plastic toothpick that comes on a Victorinox Swiss Army Knife? You, know the thing that always gets lost. I use one of those and gently slide it sideways under the vent scale where the fold is, and with a thumb or finger on top, I pull out the fold. Then, with a fingernail, I gently push on the fold line to make sure it stays straight.

Those folded vent scales get a sharp crease and sometimes shedding doesn't undo the fold.

Robert Bruce.

Vinegar is acetic acid...Bleach is, well, bleach, a base..Vinegar will kill the HIV virus, as well as any known bacteria and spore..
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Hey buddy, it's about time we heard from you! I want to beleive you , I really do, I just need more proof. But I am looking. Any suggestions on where to look to find information in support of this claim? Later,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

>>Vinegar is acetic acid...Bleach is, well, bleach, a base..Vinegar will kill the HIV virus, as well as any known bacteria and spore..
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>>Carl W Gossett
>>Garage Door Herps
>>Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Hey Carl!

Yep, vinegar will kill a bunch of stuff...except Cryptosporidium sp., at least from everything I've read. It even eventually kills the bacteria that produces it. What I've seen so far is that the only disinfectant shown to kill Crypto is Ammonia. If vinegar will kill Crypto, that's a whole lot cheaper than Roccal-D. Not as pleasant to use, but I'd use it. HIV is much more fragile than Crypto...most things will kill HIV.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear folks,

Yes, vinegar is (dilute) acetic acid. Usually it is about five percent acetic acid. There are many bacteria and spores that it won't kill.

The only common disinfectant known to kill Cryptosporidium is concentrated ammonia. There must be an extended contact time for it to work. A simple spray and rinse won't do it.

Bleach is sodium hypochlorite, the conjugate base of hypochlorous acid. Still, it is not known as a base. It is known as a relatively strong oxidant. It disinfects, not because it is a base, but because it is an oxidant. Organic molecules, what living organisms are made of, are oxidized by it. This (usually) means that oxygen atoms are introduced into the organic molecules, changing them. The ultimate oxidation products would be carbon dioxide and water.

There is one more thing. There seems to be a conception that ammonia compounds other than simple ammonia will kill crypto. I believe it was stated that Roccal-D, for example, or was it Quatricide, (or both?) was a quaternary ammonia compound. Quaternary ammonia compounds are not the same thing as ammonia. They are chemically different. There is no data that I am aware of that quaternary ammonia compounds will kill crypto. Only free ammonia is known to kill crypto, as I understand it.

I hope this sets a few things straight. Take care all.

Robert Bruce.

>>Dear folks,
>>
>>Yes, vinegar is (dilute) acetic acid. Usually it is about five percent acetic acid. There are many bacteria and spores that it won't kill.
>>
>>The only common disinfectant known to kill Cryptosporidium is concentrated ammonia. There must be an extended contact time for it to work. A simple spray and rinse won't do it.
>>
>>Bleach is sodium hypochlorite, the conjugate base of hypochlorous acid. Still, it is not known as a base. It is known as a relatively strong oxidant. It disinfects, not because it is a base, but because it is an oxidant. Organic molecules, what living organisms are made of, are oxidized by it. This (usually) means that oxygen atoms are introduced into the organic molecules, changing them. The ultimate oxidation products would be carbon dioxide and water.
>>
>>There is one more thing. There seems to be a conception that ammonia compounds other than simple ammonia will kill crypto. I believe it was stated that Roccal-D, for example, or was it Quatricide, (or both?) was a quaternary ammonia compound. Quaternary ammonia compounds are not the same thing as ammonia. They are chemically different. There is no data that I am aware of that quaternary ammonia compounds will kill crypto. Only free ammonia is known to kill crypto, as I understand it.
>>
>>I hope this sets a few things straight. Take care all.
>>
>>Robert Bruce.

Robert,

I'm (somewhat)familiar with how Amines, including quaternary ammonias(R4NX) are produced. (Biology was my forte, not Chemistry).

I distinctly remember reading a paper where Quats, such as Roccal-D were moderately effective in killing Crypto (but not necessariy the spores). I can't find it now to save my life. I do remember that the concentration of Household Ammonia tested was 5%.

I also remember that one of the most effective compounds is Methyl Bromide.

G
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Hi there Gerald,

I would be interested if you ever find the paper relating quaternary amines as capable of killing crypto. I believe that I haven't come across that one.

I hope that nobody tries to experiment with methyl bromide. This compound is deadly poison. The greenhouse industry uses this to disinfect their hydroponic growing beds (like gravel or sand) and the associated liquid systems. It is used to kill nematodes, which in some geographical areas, do great damage.

Methyl bromide is a gas. It is injected into the greenhouse and particularly into the reusable growing media I described (in between crops, because it will kill the plants too). Nowadays, most greenhouses use "bag culture" wherein the plants are grown in bags, with a disposable medium such as sawdust. In this way, the medium can be thrown away after one crop, and disinfecting with methyl bromide can, in many instances, be eliminated.

Anyways, I can see someone trying to disinfect their snake room with methyl bromide and killing all their snakes, and possibly themselves too.

That was a nice reply of yours to the fellow who has a regurgitating snake. All of the discussion you and I have had has brought out my curiosity about the subject. I may have to aquire a microscope and do some floats myself. I had a beautiful Nikon 1000X binocular that I bought several years ago. It was near new, and in perfect condition ($500 cash). The problem was, I bought it for my stepfather so that he could donate it to a clinic in Guatemala. It is hard to think that I let it get out of my hands though. Even though my snakes have no symptoms of any problem, well, I wouldn't mind seeing negative fecals as well.

Take care, Robert Bruce.

>>Hi there Gerald,
>>
>>I would be interested if you ever find the paper relating quaternary amines as capable of killing crypto. I believe that I haven't come across that one.
>>
>>I hope that nobody tries to experiment with methyl bromide. This compound is deadly poison. The greenhouse industry uses this to disinfect their hydroponic growing beds (like gravel or sand) and the associated liquid systems. It is used to kill nematodes, which in some geographical areas, do great damage.
>>
>>Methyl bromide is a gas. It is injected into the greenhouse and particularly into the reusable growing media I described (in between crops, because it will kill the plants too). Nowadays, most greenhouses use "bag culture" wherein the plants are grown in bags, with a disposable medium such as sawdust. In this way, the medium can be thrown away after one crop, and disinfecting with methyl bromide can, in many instances, be eliminated.
>>
>>Anyways, I can see someone trying to disinfect their snake room with methyl bromide and killing all their snakes, and possibly themselves too.
>>
>>That was a nice reply of yours to the fellow who has a regurgitating snake. All of the discussion you and I have had has brought out my curiosity about the subject. I may have to aquire a microscope and do some floats myself. I had a beautiful Nikon 1000X binocular that I bought several years ago. It was near new, and in perfect condition ($500 cash). The problem was, I bought it for my stepfather so that he could donate it to a clinic in Guatemala. It is hard to think that I let it get out of my hands though. Even though my snakes have no symptoms of any problem, well, I wouldn't mind seeing negative fecals as well.
>>
>>Take care, Robert Bruce.

Yeah, I don't think there's much worry about someone aquiring Methyl Bromide and trying it. It's not the easiest stuff in the world to get in the first place. Plus, by the time they went through buying it and the equipment necessary to use it, they should be well aware of the dangers.

Heat is also effective. You could just buy a huge autoclave....

By the way, LW Scientific sells a very good medical grade microscope with a 4-position turret, binocular head, mechanical stage, 100x oil lens, 10x and 16x (optional) eyepieces, and your choice of illumination for around $1,500 new. I've used Nikon, Swift and Leica in the past, and the LW Scientific works just as well as any of them. If you are interested, I can send you contact information.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson