Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok now, i'm really sick of when ppl post asking for help with an injured beardie, like 5-6 people respond you should take him toa vet and make them feel all horrible fur nto being able to take it to a vet, i'm just gonna say that when i post here and i'm sure many others oto, they expect an answer for hte best way that they can do things for the moment, jus telling them to take the thing toa vet isn't going to help them at all
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my animals
1.0.1 leopard gecko (goliath, gebco)
0.1 hypo red bearded dragon (puff the magic dragon)
0.0.1 schnieder's skink (ghandi)
0.1 white's dumpy treefrog (un-named)
0.0.1 red eared slider (carl)
0.0.1 fire belly toad (escaped..)
1.0 lop eared wabbit (oreo)
0.0.2 pink toed tarantula (mambo mambo, and un-named)
0.0.1 green iguana (iguanadonatello)
the rest of the animals in the hizouse
1.0 westie puppy (gabriel)
1.0 plain ol' outdoor alley cat (joey)
0.1 indoor rag doll kitty (tinkerbell)
2.0 goulian finchs

The issue is no one can give advice from a worded description. And not many people want to dole out vetrinairy advice over the internet. It promotes animal cruelty, because they may be wrong. If you own a pet you should be able to afford the vet bill it is that simple. There are things that vets can do that average joe schmoe can't. Once you have had them for a while it is easier to do things at home, but need to learn first. Like give antibiotics to an animal with an injury.
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Peace
Derek

When people come on here looking for advice about a problem their having, what do you expect people to say?? In some cases there advice is going to be to take the animal to the vet. The forum is maily for questions about breeding, general health, feeding and such. Just like with their kids, if people have a problem that needs medical attention, their not going to log into a chat room and talk about it, why should animals be any different. If soemone has a problem the vet is only a phone call away. He can give someone more help than a message forum ever can. And its free to call. People have a responsibility to provide animals proper care and when needed medical attention. I don't knock people for asking for advice about health problems, but don't be upset when the answer isnt the instant cure they were expecting. Just my opinion.

I guess I have a question then...Is anyone here a Vet? I belive only a Vet will be able to help that beardie and having someone who doesn't know what they are doing recommend to treat is a danger to that pet. I worked for a Veterinary Hospital for 5 years and my best friend is a Vet, but I don't pretend to be one and give advise to treat something. Reptiles as well as birds are hart to treat. Blood loss is not good at all. For someone to say just wrap it up and use a little abx cream on it could cost a pet it's life. I would not want to be responsible for that.

Thats why we did answer the question with an appropriate answer the vet needs to see it. Its the real world and the person with the problem should not try to help it any more, time for a professional... my 2 cents

Okay, but what if a vet can't see it? What if a vet CAN'T see it?

Only offering advice to take it to a vet is like saying put your hands on it's wound and chant these words and it will heal. It's not gonna happen so what's the point in advising it and then ridiculing?

Don't get me wrong, I agree whole heartedly a vet in certain circumstances is what needs to be done and it should be emphasized to the person asking for help but once that has been done and it has been established that is not an option why not at least try something?

If someone has a beardie who, with no intervention will surely die a horrible, suffering death but with some effort may at least make the last minutes of it's life a little better what would you rather have happen?

As far as not wanting to be responsible for giving advice that may do more harm than good that's fine but when there's nothing else available do you just walk away? I mean I can guarantee you if I was the only person in a room and someone needed help or they would die I'd try to give them some help. I may not have any idea what I'm doing and they may very well die but I'd sure as hell try and at least comfort them.

All of this stuff depends on the situation at hand and I feel between the two choices of there being no chance for any help and there being a chance for some help, why in the world would you not choose for there to be some help. At least you have given this beardie some comfort and maybe, if you're lucky, actually helped it's physical state as well.
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Rob Talkington

Agreed i see both sides but get very frustrated with situations like this one: all the time! Bottom line is vet is needed and i would do anything and every thing to get it to a vet specially when it was my actions that caused the problem. But our animals are part of our family...

I agree Rob! But I haven't really seen those posts unless the person who made the original [post didn't really give enough info to be able to offer advice. ( in most cases) These people either post new info or move on...

#1. If they take on the responsibility of the animal, they should get informed as to what the symtpoms could be caused by and that is what they are trying to do. Some people just don't know how to word things and can't relay in an effective manner what is going on so they can get advice that might help.

#2. To be fair tho them I STRONGLY discourage ridicule which seems to pop here QUITE a bit from people who consider themselves to be "ABOVE" these people because they have forgotten that they were more than likely in this persons shoes at one time or another.

I feel like many people forget where they come from and are more concerned with being "politically correct" with each other and getting the high five from the rest of the "better crowd" than they are with promoting truth and better husbandry advice for people who may not have been around long enough to achieve the level of knowledge that many on here have.
Why run them off by being "better" than they are? Help them achieve the level of husbandry that every beardie deserves.....

Just My Opinion
>>
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

No one on here is an expert in herp veterinary care. Did you go to six years of school for that?
Every responsible pet owner should have a vet. I keep a lot of reptiles and have two vets. One, a local herp vet, the other lives in Virginia, Scott Stahl. Do you know more than those two people? I would not trust any one on here with ultimate decisions in the health of my animals. It is cool to give proven husbandry advice but not medical advice.

Here is an inexpensive animal: If he got sick, should I come on here asking for advice or go to the vet? You say come here for advice.

Here is an expensive animal (3 grand): What about this one, would you feel comfortable giving me advice?

I care about them both equally, dollar amount aside. Maybe you and the others that posted here should re-think their stance because you are not experts.

cheers and no hard feelings,

andrew

While I agree none of us are vets.....if they are not going to seek a vets attention, then maybe what someone gives them here is the only care that dragon is going to receive.

Your point about the cost of the animal could be taken 2 ways....correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're saying no matter the cost they should receive equal care and treatment which I agree....I also think the cost should not hamper the advice given either....those who ask for advice have the choice whether to take that advice whether their pet costs $100 or $3000, that's irrelevant.

Remember, those of us who choose to offer advice, usually say a vets attention would be best, but we also want to make sure that animal gets some basic care that any experienced herper can provide details for....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com
"Whining is not only graceless, but can be dangerous.
It can alert a brute that a victim is in the neighborhood" ~Maya Angelou

People and animals are not the same at all. Did you know if you help someone in a life or death situation, and that person dies, you can be suid for wrongfull death!! I am a CNA and If I chose to help someone say who passed out in the street. The second I touch that person I become responsable for their health. I work in a hospital ER and have many different issues to deal with, I don't pretend to be a Doctor or even a nurse, so why do it here with the animals. I am by no means rich, but when my animals I choose to keep need to see a Vet you better belive they will see one! I have 5 years experence working at a Veterinary hospital and have seen it all! I don't mean to belittle that person who started this thread, but all everyone is saying is that animal needs to see a Vet and fairly fast! There are busses & Taxies for transportation and all it takes is a phone call to a couple Vets offices to see if someone will work with them on payments. I wish your beardie the best & good luck.

go back and read my post, i was saying it was best to take it to a vet. I have more than one bearded dragon and wouldn't trust the people on here with any of them.

anybody can give beardie husbandry advice, it is very straight forward but not vet advice.

cheers, andrew

I read your post....you were also relating dollars to animals, which pet owners typically do not....and you said you would care for yours the same no matter the cost so I don't know why you put that in anyway....

All I was saying was yes it was best to take them to the vet, but if they weren't and all the care that animal was going to get was from what was passed on here was better than nothing....

Just because you wouldn't listen to anyone here and take yours to the vet doesn't mean everyone is like you, unfortunately many don't seek vet care when needed and it's the animal who suffers......again, I don't encourage anyone to come here and seek vet advice, but if that's all the poor animal is going to get, we'll hope it's better than the nothing they were going to receive....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com
"Whining is not only graceless, but can be dangerous.
It can alert a brute that a victim is in the neighborhood" ~Maya Angelou

When comparing the actions of a "sue happy" society to a bearded dragon hobby that isn't that corrupt as of yet, why not leave the "sue happy" aspect out of it?

It's nitpicking and the point could have been stated if we were in a room in a third world country instead of just in a room.
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Rob Talkington

I don't think I said anything about being "sue happy" at all. But what I was saying is if you put yourself out there to give un-educated advise, well.....I guess it's up to you. Personally I don't think I would give life or death advise nor would I take it. That's just my choice.

You're choking on a piece of meat. Someone who is with you has seen the Heimleich done on someone on TV but is only 13 years old. They come to you and offer to try the heimlich and by this time you're about ready to pass out. Do you push them away or do you let them give it a shot? Keep in mind there is no one else around anywhere. Just you and this 13 year old kid. If you push him away, well, I'll just stop there.

I didn't say you said anything about a sue happy society but when someone tries to save someone else's life in a life and death situation and they get sued it's a pretty "sue happy" society don't you think?
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Rob Talkington

Well when My husband & I were in a busy diner eating lunch with our then 18 month old, he choked and NOT ONE PERSON HELPED US!!! There were two police officers three tables over, NOTHING! So this helpful socity we live in isn't so helpful.

Sorry, I wasn't dissing you at all!! Just happened to add on to your post, Sorry for the mis-understanding!

too much for someone to advise another on? I mjean if an animal is impacted and hasn't pooped for 5 days don't you think that that would be easily cured by giving it some mineral oil and soaking it in warm water twice a day for a couple days to see if you can break it loose?

That would not only save someone money but it would also teach to better care for thier reptiles. Alot of veterinary medicine is common sense and there are at home remedies for many of the ailments.

I do see your point when you say that should be learned from a vet but many on here have already learned it from a vet or through another forum member. When someone comes o0n here saying Bloody discharge.... that would be a vets job to find out why but they could still get some idea about what may be going on and like Rob and Tracey siad, get some comfort till they can get it to the vet.

The amount of knowledge the people in this forum hold is fantastic... It shouldn't go to waste. There's a double handfull of people here that know more than several of the vets that I've been to.
Later
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Robert Wood
Tulsa,OK

CheriS knows more medical information about beardies than any vet I've ever met. I don't think that anyone here should hesitate to seek or give husbandry or medical advice on reptiles, a lot of good has come from it. It should always be understood to proceed at your own risk if treating your pet medically.

However, when it comes to emergency situations I do feel it's far more important to seek immediate professional help than wait for answers on an internet forum.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>>too much for someone to advise another on? I mjean if an animal is impacted and hasn't pooped for 5 days don't you think that that would be easily cured by giving it some mineral oil and soaking it in warm water twice a day for a couple days to see if you can break it loose?
>>

Impaction is not a minor health problem. It is a major health problem that could very quickly lead to the animal's death if not dealt with in a timely manner. By telling someone to oh go ahead and treat it yourelf with a little mineral oil and soaking for however long rather than telling them they need to get that animal to a vet and then offer them some supportive care advice to get them through the night is just asking for trouble. You could be held legally responsible for that animal's death because the person chose to listen to your advice rather than go to a vet. At least with the second situtation, your advice on supportive care was just that advice to help them out and make them feel better until they can go to a vet the next day. If the person chose to ignore your suggestion to go see a vet and the animal died because they never took it to a vet and only provided supportive care hoping that was all they really needed to do, then you have already covered your butt by having told them to get it to a vet because the animal may die if not treated.
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PHWyvern

Your analogy was not only inappropriate, it is dead wrong. The FACT IS, whether you are a health care professional or not, if you choose to help someone in an emergency situation you are protected from Liability by the Good Samaritin Act, which covers all 50 states. Now, this doesn't cover malpractice or negligence, but to say as soon as I touch someone I can be held responsible for wrongful death is 100% wrong.

As a health care professional, (I am a nurse), I could be held responsible if I do something outside my scope of practice, say I perform a tracheotomy, or perform an intubation, but I am free of any liability if I choose to provide care and assistance in an emergency situation, I can provide CPR, first aid, or any prudent and reasonable measure to aid someone.

Several years ago there was a great problem of people not rendering assistance to people for fear of liability, and that is exactly why the Good Samaritin Act was passed, and it covers both health care and non-health care providers.

Paul Kemes

Where I lived & the classes I took we were told this, so sorry to upset you !! I guess I will check the laws here, but I am going on what I was told in my classes by our Nurse instructer.We also asumed the same, it's the good sam law, but we were told otherwise. Would you "play the part of a Dr?" The point was Don't pretend to be something you are not. Don't give educated advise where you are not educated! It's seems very simple to me. why is this going into a big fight? Unless you are a Vet don't give out medical advise. I guess I will check the laws here, but I am going on what I was told in my classes by our Nurse instructer.We also asumed the same, it's the good sam law, but we were told otherwise.

My point is if you are in a room full of ER nurses and there is no way to get in touch with the outside world, if you had a bleeding chest, would you rather one of those nurses try a chest tube or all of them just stand there and watch you die?

If that's not technically correct I think you get my point.
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Rob Talkington

>>My point is if you are in a room full of ER nurses and there is no way to get in touch with the outside world, if you had a bleeding chest, would you rather one of those nurses try a chest tube or all of them just stand there and watch you die?
>>
>>If that's not technically correct I think you get my point.
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>>Rob Talkington

I honestly do not think it matters not what you might want if you were that person with the bleeding chest... if you died - how would they prove that you wanted them to do whatever it took to save you even though they were not qualified to provide that kind of assistance ? The family members of the dead person are all too likely to come back and file a wrongful death suit against the hospital and those nurses if they found out that those nurses were negligent in their care because they chose to act outside of their jurisdiction and training.
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PHWyvern

But when it has been determined there was no way to have any communication with the outside world for a longer period of time any human could survive with a bleeding chest I don't think there would be a case.
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Rob Talkington

ok, everybody has their points and their thoughts brought to the table. but in canada, to help sum1 be rescued u have to ask them if they want assistance, unless they are unconsious. If they dont and u help them anyways without knowing a single thing u MAY be held a little responsible. and for the asking questions part. WE asked the questions about what to do. we can decide whether to take your advice, or leave it. if u want at the end of my posts when i ask for help i will say "no responsibilty held to anyone helping me help my pet". there u want that? ok.
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Thanks in Advance
Stephan S.

There is a lot to be said about medical advice. You don't have to be a vet for some of it. Experience gives you the same knowledge as a vet has. Surgery should be left to a vet. But giving people medical advice on little things isn't so bad. Especially in exotic animals. Seeing how there are plently of vets out there that will see exotics but have no real experience with them. At a time like that I would prefer the guy that has been keeping the animals for 15 years to help me than a vet that has gone to school for 6 years and has never had an exotic pet, had VERY MINIMAL training in how to treat them, but still sees them. Just my two cents but there are people on here I would trust more than a vet when it comes to some things.
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Peace
Derek

that is why I said reptile vet. and there are plenty of them. I have a very good one close to me. and when i need care that is top notch i would send them to the best, Scott Stahl and I have.

andrew

>>that is why I said reptile vet. and there are plenty of them. I have a very good one close to me. and when i need care that is top notch i would send them to the best, Scott Stahl and I have.
>>
>>andrew

yes he is quite a wonderful and well-known vet when it comes to reptiles even though his specialty degrees are for avian medicine.
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PHWyvern

Individuals handing out dosages and perscriptions on here which is completely illegal unless you are a licensed practicing vet. Theres a difference between a home remedy and antibiotics, etc. That might be a reason for some people no longer being here, I was emailed several times in the past from many people verifying one person in particular giving perscription medical advice out (medicine types, brands, dosages, schedules, regimens etc).
Please people use common sense go to an experienced qualified herp vet, not a forum for medical advice.

My post up above 'Baby Beardie Problem' is a perfect example for all of you to take this post and put it into action. I cannot afford a vet, the life of my dragon may well depend on advice I get here on this forum. Please don't hesitate to give advice that 'might not be the answer'.

gotten the dragon. didn't you think about that?

this is the exact reason why i would consider sticking a whole batch of beardie eggs in the freezer. luckily though there is enough people that would give proper care to their animals.

andrew

I'm sorry to blast here, but some of you high and mighties here are being hypocritical to the highest degree. You say you care so much for life of a pet yet you could give a rats ass if this guys pet is suffering at the moment and could die. It would be like a politician telling an American soldier he couldn't help a wounded Iraqi even if the Iraqi government conceeded to needing help. Oh sorry your government was responsible for getting you into this mess so none of our soldiers will be allowed to try and help. Sometimes you just need to do what is right. Should this guys BD be committed to death or suffering becuase his owner asked for help and no one gave it.

For the guy with the BD who's leg was bitten off - If at all possible get him to the vet, but it sounds like your situation for whatever reasons (people here have no idea about) does not allow that. So I will offer what I would do in your situation, keeping in mind that i'm not a vet and this is common sense first aid.

1. Seperate the two BD's.

2. Stop the bleeding and sterilize. Gauze and Neosporin.

3. Keep the BD in a clean enclosure with no substrate. Rubbermaid tubs found at Walmart are cheap, like 5-10 bucks.

If you don't wan't to keep the BD who caused the problem, please don't kill him! Take him to the humane society and give him up.

I guess I'm one of the horrible people who told them they needed to get the animal to a vet. The reason I replied was not to ridicule, nor to get a high five from the "better crowd".

The person asked "Please tell me how this is my fault before I throw the other beardie out of the window!" so I replied to tell them that yes, it was your actions not the lizard's which resulted in this happening. Then I agreed that a vet was needed. I'm sorry, I don't know how to treat a lizard who's leg has been chewed off, but a vet would. It truly is the best advice anyone can give, and maybe if they see that more than a few people agree they will accept the responsibility to get it to a vet. That's what I would hope, anyways.

If I did have any advise other than that, how to bandage the wound and such, I certainly would have offered it. Since I didn't I just wanted to say they shouldn't be mad at the lizard for doing what comes natural to it, and that I agreed they should do what it takes to get it to a vet. I don't think that is so horrible.

And did the thread get deleted or what?
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

Yeah, I guess it did get deleted. I wonder why. Seriously, did I miss something?

Anyway, you put that statement in quotes and frankly I had missed that part of the post so I'm glad you did post your reply. I sure as heck wouldn't want the other beardie out the window!!
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Rob Talkington

Now that I think about it I think that post was deleted due to the first few answers which were not necessarily answers. I don't know, just a guess. I can't remember how harsh they were.
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Rob Talkington

In that case I would think the offending post(s) would get deleted, but not the whole thread. I can only remember one post that was actually a bit harsh, mine and the other at the time were pretty fair, so I thought.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

The mods can't pick one particular post out to delete. If the top gets deleted, many under it have to go too. I don't really understand how it works. I mod on another site and can single any post out I want to. Just a different set up I guess.
(I didn't think your post was harsh either)
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www.classylizard.com

Well, what I'm saying is, the original post was not offensive at all. One of the first replies was harsh, and that one could have been deleted without effecting the original post, or mine, or the other that was there at the time. Those posts were not linked to the one harsh post (which I still don't think was harsh enough to get deleted, just brutally honest.)
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

When the original/main post in a discussion is found to be in violation of the terms of service - the entire thread is pulled regardless if the responses to that post are violations or not. That has always been the case when dealing with the first post of any thread.

When problems occur within a thread (but the main post is often ok) then things are handled in whatever manner is deemed appropriate to that particular situation and can involve either individual responses being pulled, entire subthreads or parts of subthreads pulled (even though not all responses within them are in violation) or in some cases simply the entire thread pulled altogether. It is a case by case bases on how things are dealt with (on the old forums it was an all or nothing situation when dealing with subthreads).

Many people will complain posts are unfairly pulled or censorerd, but it all comes down to the fact that the site has rules, people agreed to abide by the rules, things happen, violations occur, problems are dealt with but not everyone sees those problems in their entirety and so do not always know the full story and they base their assumptions and complaints from only parts of what they see or know or think is happening. This can sometimes turn into a vicious cycle of repeating problems and disruption on a forum as there will be some paranoia/anger/frustration/disrtust/whatever going on amongst people that keeps everything feeding on itself and making things worse (sometimes it is even deliberately created by one or a few with nothing better to do than start wars/fights/riots).

Exactly why someone's post is pulled is something that is only discussed with that person should they choose to ask about it via email and it is not discussed with anyone else who may ask why someone else's post was yanked. It's all a matter of privacy issues with those individuals and not meant for public speculation.

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PHWyvern

I completely understand how the delete function works. Like I said, the original post of the thread in question was not in violation. But it's no big deal to me. I just hope that person requested it to be pulled, otherwise they might not be getting the information they needed.

As to how the TOS is enforced... well like many others lately I have a lot to say on the subject, but it won't do any good as it's clearly not up for discussion. Unfortunate too, considering how so many of us feel that lately it's been used as a catch-all for "violations" which aren't specifically defined, and open communication on the subject could clear up a lot of confusion.

The valuable members who've been run off lately were certainly not the types with nothing better to do than start fights, they are passionate people who truly care about the well-being of the species, and their absense is this forum's loss.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

I will not elaborate further on trying to explain the reasons why large chunks of posts or entire discussions are or may be pulled because it would be crossing the line in regards to this particular situation. There is no way I can explain things any clearer without discussing matters best left to private email between members and staff involved.

>>
>>As to how the TOS is enforced... well like many others lately I have a lot to say on the subject, but it won't do any good as it's clearly not up for discussion. Unfortunate too, considering how so many of us feel that lately it's been used as a catch-all for "violations" which aren't specifically defined, and open communication on the subject could clear up a lot of confusion.

At any time if someone has a problem with the site policies or the enforcement of those policies or even the people who volunteer their time to enforce those policies to make these forums safe and appropriate to people of all ages, they are certainly free to direct those concerns/comments to the Director of Community Services via the Feedback Form as it is so clearly noted in the terms of service:

http://www.kingsnake.com/shared/tos.html#7

Feedback

We like to hear from our users. Literally hundreds of ideas suggested by our members have become a part of pethobbyist.com. Your opinions matter to us! We are always open to suggestions on how we can improve our pethobbyist.com communities to make them more enjoyable and our site policies more useful. Feedback from registered users of the pethobbyist.com communities may be sent through the Feedback Form. Non-registered users may submit feedback to the Director of Community Services through our Contact Page.

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PHWyvern

"I will not elaborate further on trying to explain the reasons why large chunks of posts or entire discussions are or may be pulled because it would be crossing the line in regards to this particular situation"

That's ok, I didn't ask you to.

Feedback has been given. Some has been ignored, others have shown no interest in the concerns.... like I said it doesn't seem to be up for discussion. We have to accept the way things are or move on as others have done.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
1.0 pictus gecko (Nicodemus)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
0.0.1 tarantula (Calcifer)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

I feel advising a person to take a sick/injured animal to a vet is always good advice, regardless of any 'quick fixes' a person knows that could solve the problem. Most qualified vets would be hesitant to give advice over the phone unless he/she can examine the animal.

Some things can be easily fixed without a professional seeing the animal but in some situations, recommending a vet is the best bet. Especialy with symptoms that can be caused by different things. Injuries should be brough to a vet, especialy a limb amputation. Sure a bandage and topical antibiotic is good advice to hold off till a vet can be seen but such injuries can cause shock and other side effects that would need professional treatment. These things can't be fixed by an over the internet cure. Internal bleeding, shock, bloodloss etc..this requires immediate medical care.

I certainly won't hesitate to advise a vet check to anybody I feel should take their animal to the vet. If I feel I can advice something to do in the mean time, I will suggest that as well. A nipped toe or tail tip to me could be fine with some neosporin without a vet check, unless it gets worse (ie swellon, blacking of surrounding tissue etc), which I would still mention.

Thing is, I feel people should be well educated about their pets before they buy them. They should already know how to recognize basic problems and how to treat them, if possible, at home. Most of the problems people come here asking help for are problems that would not have happened if proper care was provided, the person didn't wait a week or month or whatever to decide there was a problem. Or would be aware of what to do if the dragon doesn't have a poo for a couple days, what sized crickets to feed it etc.

All the answers to the basic needs for any animal is available at our fingertips. It doens't take long to do a search on bearded dragons, anoles or whatever and read care sheets, etc from a couple different sites to get an ideal what general care an animal needs, their mannerisms, how big they get, if they like to be housed alone or with others of their kind etc. But every day the same basic questions get asked over and over again. Afterall these same people found this forum and that makes them only one step away in finding their answers, without waiting for somebody to answer their questions.
Not that i am discouraging people to post their questions here, I just want to encourage them to spend a few minutes and see if they can find the answer themselves, or at least gain more knowledge relating to their questions so they can indicate they tried all the basic things and need further help. I love seeing posts where a person says they want to get a dragon, have done tons of research, read a couple books, and bought what they need for the dragons' home and ask if they missed anything. Then, the buy the dragon

I think it also important to point out the very real fact that it is illegal for anyone to practice medicine without a medical lic. just as it is to prescribe medications and dosages to someone without a lic. or purchase precription drugs without a doctor's perscription order/ok. Just because someone has layperson experience does not mean they can treat someone else's animals and not be held liable for it.

Dispensing what amounts to medical veterinary care to strangers over the internet without the benefit of a real vet seeing that particular animal in person is opening yourself up to some very real and very legal liability issues - including lawsuits.

An honest vet is NOT going to dole out detailed veterinary/medical care over the internet. They are going to say the same thing as anyone else would/should - advise whoever to take the animal to see their own vet. let their vet examine the animal in person. let their vet make the medical decisions based on their examination of the animal. At best what a vet might do over the internet is tell someone what their opinion is in regards to the problem that an animal *might* be experiencing based on the person's description and the vets own knowledgable experience of animals, but even so they would cover their butt by saying something along the lines of: Take the animal to your vet and have them check the animal out, but feel free to inform your vet of these possible areas of concern that might be related to the animals' health/problem....yada yada.
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PHWyvern

If there's such a risk for legal liabilities then you tell me why there are a ton of reptile products manufacturers still making products that mislead, rip off, and in a lot of cases cause harm to the animals.

From what I can tell the chances of anybody being sued over forum advice is nill. Can you give me a successful example of such a case because if you can I'm going to contact that lawyer and we'll do a little research into the calcisand that is supposedly safe for beardies. The kind that I believe has a pic of a beardie on the packaging. The kind that has caused numerous deaths due to impaction.

Is there really a need to worry about the legal issues you mention?

BTW, Kephy is right on about the feedback. I don't know if you've seen what I have but that kind of attitude has been the downfall of many businesses. It might not happen tomorrow but it will happen if a few things don't change.
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Rob Talkington

>>If there's such a risk for legal liabilities then you tell me why there are a ton of reptile products manufacturers still making products that mislead, rip off, and in a lot of cases cause harm to the animals.
>>
>>From what I can tell the chances of anybody being sued over forum advice is nill. Can you give me a successful example of such a case because if you can I'm going to contact that lawyer and we'll do a little research into the calcisand that is supposedly safe for beardies. The kind that I believe has a pic of a beardie on the packaging. The kind that has caused numerous deaths due to impaction.

Your scenario of comparing bad manufactured products for public consumption has no basis for what I was saying inregards to giving someone specific medical/veterinary diagnosis and/or medications without the benefit of the person having been lic. as a veterinarian or seen the animal in person. Manufactured products for animal care are marketed to the public for public consumption for their pets. They are NOT manufacturing their products in such a manner as to require them to follow whatever govt. guidelines that means they are required to sell those products to medical professionals who then prescribe those products to their clients for their pets use. But these products (unlike your typical 'prescription diets' for dogs/cats are not marketed for veterinarian use in the treatment of animals with specific guidelines for their use. If they were then you can be sure they could be held liable for a bad product.

Calci-sand is not a prescription substrate. None of the many brands of essentially overpriced worthless 'reptile' filler/pelleted/reeze-dried diets require a vet's authorization for you to buy. hot rocks do not require a vet's prescription to buy. etc.

The so called medicines you buy over the counter are so weak as to be considered essentially useless...same goes for those 'vit a eye treatements' or 'rid worm' and 'rid rot' and electrolyte this and whatever have you... If there was enough real medication in those products to make them useful then they would not be on the shelves and would have to be by prescription only because people could potentially sue for wrong death of their animal due to overdosing or misuse of the drugs because they were trying to home treat their animal rather than get a proper diagnosis from a lic. vet. there is nothing there medically speaking to help the animal on the over the counter stuff...it's just a marketing gimmick to get an uninformed consumer to buy something. And if you are not aware of the fact reptiles and exotic products for consumer consumption is not regulated like cats/dogs are and even then cats/dogs are not regulated all that much.
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PHWyvern