Reptile & Amphibian Forums

…just wondering is anyone is doing this, pros and cons…

I thought of that too but was warned for many reasons. The one I didn't like was RETF's eat large crickets and any uneaten crickets will chew on the PDF's. I'm sure the guys here can post tons of other reasons.

If you really do care about the RETF and darts you would not attempt this.

FYI, I am a friend of one of the most recognized amph. zoo keepers in the country...who has traveled to central america with numerous zoos and studied these animals in the field.
She's one of the most recognized breeders as well...I'm going to choose not to mention her name in the internet but:

I posed the question to her and her response was that she has had this combination many times in multispecies zoo displays with no problems. The tree frogs are nocturnal and arboreal and the darts are terestrial and diurnal and they don't bother one another.

I suppose you'd have to be careful about large crickets...
yes I care about my animals, however I want to create an enjoyable, naturalistic set up, and would like to do mutli-species. I'm trying to find out what combinations would work best.

I just wanted to talk to breeders who may have had other experiences. "if you really care about your frogs" is a pretty harsh statement

Im sure the multi spieces terrarium your friend speaks of is quite large i just cant see a zoo putting multiple spieces in something say the size of a 55 gallon maybe a 75 or 100 depending on what size tank you are using it will be very risky and take a lot of work to make sure everything works out right...i remember Czar Helix stated on his site that he had a nice 75 gallon comunity tank set up with a few diff types of tree frogs and darts....i am at no liberty to say if it is ok though being that i dont own any darts but i do own a RETF and i am planning on purchasing some golden mantellas in the future...
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-Bryan

Reflex Geckos Check it out!

That's logic I can listen to.

"if you really care about your animals, you won't do it"

...that's not advice.

Thanks for your comments.

I have been doing this for a few years now in my 135 gallon viv. And I have had very good results with it. If you are going to do it, you need a large enclosure, 135 is about as small as I would go. The concern about crickets eating darts is probably very valid and is not something I am not inclind to risk. So, my RETF is hand fed frozen/thawed crickets about five nights a week. There are some temp and humidity issues to keep in mind, as RETF are much happier slightly less humid then the darts and like it a bit hotter. However, it is relatively easy to accomidate both species in a large enough enclosure. Also keep the stocking density of the RETFs low, at most I have only kept two in this setup. If you are going to try it make sure you know as much as can about all species involved.

If you have the same facilities and faculties as a zoo, it might be all right. If you don't, keep your frogs separate, learn about and enjoy each individually before you consider mixing them together.

Once you have done this, you may not want to mix them together. Keeping frogs is not a show-off art collage.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Keeping frogs is not a show-off art collage?

What is it then?
Why do YOU keep frogs?

To breed them to make money?
Is that better than creating a nice, multi-species exhibit?

I keep them for their color and beauty, as well as for their interesting habits, the latter of which are best displayed in pairs or groups of the same species, (depending upon how they get along best.) I also keep them in terrariums with as much attention to the plants and waterfall features, etc. in order to give them both an attractive and suitable habitat. I don't however keep different species together. By collage, I meant that while one could put together some great paintings or photos of different species, the living animals require different habitats.

I know only a few serious breeders personally. All of these are experts, and are interested in the reproduction and sharing these frogs with hobbyists. I know of none whose sole interest is making a lot of money at it. They are lucky to cover expenses, let alone paying for the time and care it takes to raise them. Any reliable breeder also covers any shipping losses that occur. (Shipping deaths aren't covered by the carrier.) They aren't getting rich, by any means.

Most everyone new to the hobby wants to have a big colorful mixture of different species. I considered this myself, when I started. My first project was a paludarium from a 135 gallon fish tank, that included a waterway, waterfalls, land areas, etc. I wanted to mix some D. galactonotus with some imitators, as I thought they would occupy different levels and never meet. They would never meet the fish of course, and as long as there were plenty of logs for egress, they could swim ashore if they fell in. (The galacs did indeed fall in a lot, at first.) The fish and galacs got along just fine. I had some problems when I introduced a couple of red clawed crabs into the fish tank, that climbed around on the land, ate the folliage and annoyed the frogs. Then I discovered the galacs occupied all levels, even utilized the bromeliads for sleeping and soaking. I put the imitators in a different tank when I got them, to enjoy them separately. Once out of their nursery, they immediately started breeding and putting on a great show. Although I never tested it, it was obvious that the two species would have competed too much for a healthy relationship. Most frogs are pretty territorial and invasions stress them.

I think the zoo displays for show are rather temporary and often replaced. There is a back room for replacements when anything goes wrong.

I didn't intend to patronize you. I apologize for this.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Hmm,
After working as a Zookeeper with amphibians for a little over thirteen years now I would have to disagree with the statement about just replacing the animals if something goes wrong. This is not what responsiable Zoos do or intend to do if there is a problem. There is a lot of effort placed into correcting the problem before the animals are even considered for reintroduction into the situation.
Most Zoos do not have huge enclosures and are often relegated to enlcosures that have similar dimensions to enclosures that are smaller than 100 gallon aquariums.

I have kept and bred tincts under the same temperatures and humidity levels as retfs with no problems. I would suggest that if keeping darts with retfs is a goal then keep one of the larger species like tincts, terriblis, or leucs. Unlike the example with the thumbnails listed above, these species are not competing for the same or similar niches and will not interact. If you feed the retfs by placing the crickets in a large glass bowl with sloped sides then the crickets cannot climb out and threaten the darts.
Ed

I stand corrected, Ed, about how your zoo does this. But would you recommend that someone new to the hobby keep Red Eyed Tree frogs with a dart species before gaining any experience with either alone?
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

RETFs that are cb are not that difficult to acclimate and set-up in an enclosure. They are nowhere near as delicate as wc animals.
If an easy PDF such as one of the tinct group is chosen then as long as diligence was paid to the feeding and misting there should not be any real difficulties.
If the PDF is an adult of the tinct group then 10 day old crickets (I forget the size off the top of my head) are an appropriate food item for both animals and the daily feedings are appropriate for both groups.

The idea that a "newbie" is unable to care for a specific species is very dependent on the "newbie" in question. If the person takes the time to learn about the species and is diligent in the care then they may be more successful than a person with many years experience with FBTs, Ceratophrys or another species considered appropriate for beginners who is not diligent in the care.
I prefer to give someone the benefit of the doubt as long as they are using cb animals. It may sound callous but I would rather see someone go through 30 cb frogs before getting it right than one wc frog. At least the cb animals are not removed from populations that may be declining or under other adverse pressures.
Ed

Yes
I currently have a pr of red galacs in with a red eyed tree frog male. They have been living in harmony for 2yrs and I have never had a problem. You may want to feed your red eye during the evening and only a few crix per feeding.