Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thanks FR

wow.thank you for those pictures. i never relizied they look that much alike. could you cross breed them?

The same species, or diferent subspecies can interbreed. V. Various and V.Salvadorii, they are physically similar in some ways.

There are many examples in captivity (and even some in nature) of different species interbreeding. Even different genera.

Examples include:
lions x tigers
lions x leopards
zeebras x horses
domestic dogs x coyotes
society finches (results of centuries of interbreeding of different finch species)
two separate species of Darwin's finches (occured in nature, cactus finches x large billed finches, if I recall correctly)
argus monitors x sand monitors
bull snakes x corn snakes (different genera)
king snakes x corn snakes (ditto)

In most cases, the offspring are fertile (cross breeds within the horse family are the only case I can immediately think of where the offspring usually are not fertile).

How does this affect the interbreeding of lacies with crocs? Basically, we do not know if it would work or not. Still, I'd put my money on fertile offspring if given even odds.

Luke

Therefore red ackies (V.acanthurus, V.A.brachyurus= same species different supspecies). Other examples are the gouldi complex, they are interbreedable, they are the same complex of species, they have the same genetics, hemipene morhology etc.
Any animal that can interbreed are the same complex or species, after all people have never bred with chimpanzees or gorillas. Zebras and horses and donkeys are obviously the same classification again, all dogs, wolves, coyotes are all Canis species, therefore interbreedable, many many species are in the process of being reclassified as a species can interbreed. Snakes there are many examples that will be reclassified as pine, gopher, bull, king, etc all interbreed.
Years ago the albigularis and exanthematicus were classified as the same species, although even before genetics were used to reclassify them having much different hemipene morphology separated them, afterwards genentics placed the common nile as closer related to the bosc than all other species. Monitors were one of the first genera to be reclassified by genetics/DNA. There are many many to reclassify, therefore a long time to see changes in every area of biology.

Luke's post here is correct, yours isn't. Lots of things that are regarded by everyone as prefectly good species in nature will sometimes hybridize in captivity (and occasionally in the wild, too). What you are advocating sounds a bit like the creationist concept of "kinds" of animals, using interfertility for a standard. Unfortunately, "kind" is also a variable concept -- depending on the group, it corresponds to single species, to some (but not all) species in a single genus, to all species in a genus, or even to members of two or more genera.

You're right that it's about genetics, and about relationship, but not in a simplistic way. Part of it is behavioral -- do you know anybody who wants to get it on with a chimp? If we assume you do, offspring might not result, or they might -- who's gonna raise junior? Viability and fertility are also different things, and this seems to be widely misunderstood.

While the overall similarity of DNA sequences (= relationship) is correlated with both viability and fertility, it isn't a straight-line association. For example, in genera such as Equus (horses), species usually differ in chromosome number or structure. Hybrids are viable, but when it comes time for them to make gametes the mix-and-match chromosomes can't sort out properly, and only inviable sperm and ova result. By contrast, in genera such as Bufo (toads) many species share the same chromosome number and morphology, and hybrids are both viable and (often) fertile. So, it depends, and there are no hard and fast rules here.

Hybrids are not very popular in nature for the simple reason that they are often not 'A' enough to be attractive to an A mate, or 'B' enough to be attractive to Bs. Who's thinking that Bonzovar is looking good? Right.

And he has Lacies, so between the 2 of you, it could be proven, right?? If not then I guess the idea of them being close enough to interbreed is wrong. I personally think its like the "monster monitor" the supposed salvadorii/salvator cross that was claimed by the same people who told me that they have never bred a monitor period, on the phone. Until its done, well proven to be done then, oh well. Of course I dont think FR would try that hybrid.

"And he has Lacies, so between the 2 of you, it could be proven, right?? If not then I guess the idea of them being close enough to interbreed is wrong."

There are a lot of people out there with pairs of the same species that don't seem to be breeding them, but that doesn't mean monitors can't breed with members of their own species. A couple of people trying to hybridise two species and failing is no proof that the two species can not be hybridised.

I still doubt it to happen, after all lacies and komodos are closer, yet do you think it could happen? I dont know, but we will never know unless it happens.

The point that everyone has been trying to make is that the ability to hybridise isn't always about how close animals are. There are intergeneric hybrids in snakes - several that I know of and not just colubrids. Maybe varius and salvadorii can hybridise, maybe they can't, but the point is that there is nothing about them that suggests it would be impossible for them to hybridise. Contrary to your original post, it isn't just subspecies that can hybridise.

Hi Shvar,

I have spoken with and corresponded with the fellow who "believes" he bred a V. salvator x V. salvadorii - and I believe 'he' Sincerely believes he did do this - but I have the two DOA/DIE full term siblings of the remaining survivor right here on my bookshelf, and what 'he' believes and what is proven right in front of me are two different things; the female was/is a V. salvator, and the two offspring I have are V. salvator, no doubt about it....so this 'monster monitor' is a fun thing to talk about but in this case it did not happen as 'sincerely' reported...it is a mistake. Both parents were/are V. salvator.
cheers,
mbayless

At that time they told me they hadnt produced any, I was in the market, they told me they never produced any CBB monitors and directed me to where to call. If it happened afterwards then thats a different point. As for the hatchlings being salvator, thats a different point yet. yes they are real animals, not hybrids, only salvators. Im sure many people have bought gravid monitors and may have had the luck of them laying eggs and possibly hatching some. Whether thats yhe exact case, nobody knows, I was called about a CB female WT several years ago that was hatched from one egg from many layed a day after she arrived and then died, I saw the cage and the mothers body in the freezer as well the eggs in the incubator, but the animal was way too much at the time.

The genetics research performed by Jennifer Ast, placed komodoensis, varius, and salvadorii together in one similar genetic group, with salvadorii being the outer part of that group. In captivity, varanids which are even more genetically dissimilar, such as glauerti and pilbarensis, have produced offspring. According to Ast's research, glauerti is more closely related genetically, to tristis, and not pilbarensis. Who knows what would happen.... I'd say that there'd be a greater chance of a lace x croc happening, than the so called "monster monitor", which was hoaxed to be a Croc x Water...

Just my thoughts... what about Humans x Chimpanzees? We are both separate species, yet there exists hybrids......I think the definition of a species is too loosely defined...

CBB monitors and availability, they said they never bred any monitors. That was right before I ordered Sobek.

I bet she's getting huge...

Ill have to try again soon.

But then you loose the whole idea of the species. One example: Wolves and coyotes occupy the same habitat. They have different habits, different prey, different behaviors, different appearences. In the wild, they are mostly reproductively isolated, forming two distinct groups that only rarely interbreed. it makes sense to classify these as two different species. Yet, they can interbreed to give fertile offspring. Saying these were the same species would obscure an important biological fact, of two significantly different types of wild dog in North America.

Luke

They can interbreed, they are very similar genetically, they do interbreed commonly, coydogs, wolf hybrids, etc. The proof is running wild all over North America, and in private collections. Until it happens, and is proven to happen I dont count on V. Salvadorii/Various.

Has occured with Morelia variegata X M. kinghorni and Morelia variegata X Liasis fuscus. The same male carpet was the male in both of the above breedings.

Acanthophis hawkei X A. lancasteri
Pseudechis colletti X P. guttatus
Pseudechis guttatus X P. australis
Morelia cheyni X M. viridis
Tiliqua scincoides X T. rugosus
Tiliqua scincoides X T. nigrolutea

And I am sure there is more!

Scott Eipper

Even herps in different genus' interbreed, at least in captivity.

Interbreeding a Lace to a Croc is very possible and will likely be accomplished by by some enterprising monitor lizard breeder in the near future.

Lace and Croc's look like different extensions of the same animal to me. The fact that they have been labeled as different species by humans has nothing to do with their true genetic makeup.

Australian aboriginies and caucasions look very different and they can interbreed with no problem.

I'd never seen the similarity between lacies and crocs from photos. It was not until I had the opportunity to examine a sub-adult lace monitor up close and in person that I could really see the similarity to croc monitors. I don't know why it does not transfer as well to film (or pixels).

Luke