Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thought I'd share him with everyone on the forum. He's a WC male, and thinks his main goal in life is to deplete the entire toad population LOL
cheers,
John

Nice snake. Did you buy him or find him? I'd love to hear some background on him. I sure hope you plan on breeding him at some point. Thanks for posting some pics.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

must.....have.....snake............cannot breathe......must get snake or else i die........send him asap.......
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"raised by a cup of coffee"

1.0 ball python- Azazel
1.0 columbian boa- Brooklyn
1.0 red blood python-Hiss
1.0 peach phase thayeri-Sancho
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 partial stripe ghost corn- Raven
1.0 Sunglow motley corn-Ernie
1.1 hognose- Pricilla and Odd
0.1 russian tortoise- Manja
0.1 collared lizard-O-ren
0.1.1 leos- Boji and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.0 BTS- Griffon
0.1 Iggy- Sunny
0.0.2 Red american toadlets with 0.0.7 legs total (er, i have one w/3....)
0.0.1 gray tree frog toadlet
0.0.6 land snails
0.0.2 millipedes of unknown species from TN
0.0.1 spotted slug
5.3 bettas
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
2.3 ratties Rizzo, Bounce, Bree, Blitzkreig, and Zelda

This guy will only eat toads?

Have you gotten him to feed on fuzzies yet? That would make things easier on you.

I've seen that most early leucistic or albino animals are often sterile and short-lived. It takes lots of luck and time to produce abnormal animals that will actually breed predictively.

For example, look at albino western hognoses lately. There are some heterozygous animals available on occasion, but it has been nearly impossible to breed or produce other albinos because they are so short lived and do not breed well. You have to rush them to maturity and hope they will make babies. And, if it is the first of its kind, you will have to hope that that parent stays alive long enough to mate with offspring for a good chance of establishing the abberant morph.

Also, too bad it is an eastern. They do not take well to mice and aren't as good captives as westerns. If it had been a western, you might have a pretty valuable snake. I hope you didn't pay too much for the snake in the picture as it will likely poop out on you the minute you run out of toads!

Easterns can be tricky (and some from time to time are impossible), but generally if you know what you are doing, they are not too hard to keep. And besides, there is a great way to negate the need for collecting live toads and keeping them through the winter. Roads after rain are a prime place for amphibians, especially. There are usually tons that have been slightly hit and recently died or are still dying. You can amass quite a number of these guys in the freezer and save them for a rainy (err....cold) day.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

You could be entirely wrong in regards to this particular bloodline. Why make assumptions about animals really no one knows anything about. Not even the owner knows what this bloodline will do. Just because Albino westerns have taken longer to outcross to produce stronger specimens, you have to assume that the same goes for any hognose (whether Eastern or western) morph? The sad part is I bet in the next year, there will be a rumor circulating that the Leucistic Eastern is sterile....probably before it even gets a chance to breed!Assumptions on the internet end up taken as truth at some point and it in turn spreads like wildfire.
I bet this snake goes on to do just fine and produce many more just like it. After all, there's a hell of alot of albinos of countless species of snake in captivity and almost all of them have had no fertility problems or any other issue.

I am not saying you are doing this neccessarily but it is comethin I have seen so many times now, it is truly troublesome...It frustrates me when something neat hits the market and folks are so quick to assume the worst about them. I just hope someone out there picks up this snake and proves everyone wrong. It almost seems as if some folks are just envious and wish to make poor, baseless assumptions about them to somehow make themselves feel better. As long as there are new morphs, there will be envy.
I just think that we could use a little less pessimism and perhaps a little more support is all.

While you are speaking your mind, it came off to me like you had nothing good at all to say about this incredible find.
I too felt I had to speak my mind about your comments and this thread. I do not wish to argue or flame or whatever....just needed to vent from my point of view.

-Yasser
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You could be entirely correct. I was merely posting some musings.

However, in the past 20 years, there has been a huge amount of literature produced in evolutionary ecology and animal behavior regarding mate choice, mostly by females. Mostly what it boils down to is that females tend to be very choosy and males less so. This has been explained as a liely result from the expense of reproduction on the female and lack of investment from the male. Also, gamete size has been used to explain this pattern (anisogamy).

When females are allowed to choose between two males, they often exhibit a STRONG preference for one male over the other. This can be based on chemical cues and also on visual cues. Basically, the female is making a choice to mate with a male that will maximize the fitness of her genes. Fitness is typically defined as the chance that an individual will produce offspring that will live to produce offspring. In the case of blatantly aberrat individuals like albinos and leucistics, it doesn't make much sense for a female (or even a male) to choose to mate with this aberrant partner because it will likely reduce their fitness in the wild. These animals do not realize they are in captivity and are constrained by the same principles that act in the wild.

Snakes cue in very much to smells and chemical signals and may not even rely on visual stimulation. So I'm not arguing that a female will refuse this male because he is "ugly", but rather may pick up on chemical cues. Remember, with albinos and others, there is a change or lack of a hormone that promotes melanin production. What I would like to see is some experiments performed investigating this. I mean, if females strongly prefer one male over another when they are outwardly similar, what about one that is glaring aberrant versus a normal?!?! Reduced attraction results in reduced likelihood of mating success.

I think this often results in extreme difficulty in early production of aberrant animals. Couple that with the inherent difficutly of keeping an eastern and viola: no value.

-CP

While it is true that females can be very picky there have been very few (actually none that I know of) studies that look at mate choice in a captive environment. The real question is, if given no choice will the female choose to miss a chance to reproduce or will she take whatever male she can get? I suspect that she will take whom ever is there, if that is the case then there is not much to worry about.

Also, melanin production is a complex biochemical process and mutations can effect any number of the intermediate steps in the pathway, so it depends on what gene has been inactivated. There is a good chance that hormonal regulation is not the gene that was mutated.

Just some thoughts,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

yeah... that snake is in the classified section right now. the owner wants $6,000 or best offer for him.

...why not try to breed this snake yourself? He is obviously incredibly beautiful and should he produce some offspring next year you would get a pretty penny for them. It may be well worth your while.

Jennifer Webb
(Jungle Gems)

...

I'd like to share some background on this little guy. He is wild caught, somewhere in north FL. He's approx 9 inches long and in excellent condition. He's not shy at all and rarely hides, but he does like to hood up LOL.. I bought him from a man that initally offered him for sale on Kingsnake.He is feeding on live toads, and if I had intentions of keeping him I'd switch him over to rodents, or a combination of frozen thawed toads and rodents. I'd like to thank everyone for their positive comments. A special thanks to Yasser. I know I wouldn't have been as tactfull as he.. well said!!!

John (gatorfly@alltel.net)

he's cute, sorta reminds me of a little alien

I'm just saying that animals like this are frought with tough roads ahead. You would have had a gold mine had this been a western hognose. However, easterns are notoriously difficult and known to stop feed and waste away. I've seen it happen to numerous individuals.

Also, the fact that you originally bought it and are immediately reselling it is very fishy. If it was eating well and had any chance of success, I'm sure you'd be keeping it yourself. I mean, why else did you buy it?

And yes, any one of us would be glad to have it. It is probably worth as much as an albino western and we know how valuable those are!

Mr cypherpunks, I realize I'm not well known on this forum, but one thing I'm not is a liar. I'll attempt to answer your questions and put this thing to rest. Did I take a chance buying this animal? Yes I did. I've been a pilot since 1970, and chances are a part of my life. I bought him for two reasons. I could afford him, and yes I bought him with the intention of reselling him. I really don't have the time for a breeding project.As far as his eating habits, you're more than welcome to come to my house and watch him make a toad disappear.
What is this animal worth? Hard to say, but common sense tells me he has to be worth more than an albino western because they're not that rare. My leucistic is the only one known in the world. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Nuff said, you just got my dander up a little and I had to vent...
John

Hey, it is worth it! Almost all albinos had to start from some WC specimen. Don't let anyone make that snake sound as worthless as that other poster is doing. You got something good there, and even after you sell, please try and keep us updated on what is going with it. There have been a few other leucy platyrhinos found in the past, but I don't think there are any at the moment. Who knows though? Good luck.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

Hey John...........sounds like someone is trying to lowball. I would say you are absoultely correct in assuming it is worth a lot more than an albino western. I think what we have here is a case of hognose envy (Freud explains it better). We all wish we could have an animal like that. Most of us don't have the resources or for that matter the balls to take a chance on an that little guy. I think the rewards outway the risk if anyone can gert that little guy to first eat mice and second breed. Just ask some of the albino ball people! Anywho.....beautiful snake, hope you can get a buyer who takes the time with that critter. Who mknows in a few years may have some on the market that a poor guy like me can afford!

Scott

Wow, that is an AWESOME looking snake!!!
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-Lauren

~ Lauren's Lizards ~