Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok someone help me out.....I thought I knew snakes pretty well< but when my whitesided black rats (which I seen copulate with my own eyes, and was there when she layed) hatched out 7 beautiful babies......which werent anywhere close to being whitesided....I was confused......

I got 2 normal colored babies and.......wouldnt you know it.... 5 hypos!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW would 2 whiteside (aka licorice stick) parents have that litter?

I'm no geneticist but.....if you breed 2 whitesides.....you should get mainly whitesides.....if not all!!!!!!right?

Anyone have any clue as to what had happened with these?I will send pics if needed..........(the hypos are purpleish redish brown ((almost rusty looking)) and are definately lacking black pigment where it should be)They all also have white bellies!!!!! Not the black or at least patterned bellies that black rats usually show.

dont get me wrong....they are beautiful!!!! but definately not what I expected to see when I looked in the box at 57 days

anyway.....anyone with any replies would be appreciated

keith

P.S. Mike sorry I havent mailed you back but I havent even seen my email in like 3 weeks .....we (my fiance and I ) just got back online today.

They must have been hets ...What a nice surprise
I had the same surprise a few yrs back with my licorice too.
I bought a rusty from mark bell and breed him to a licorice .She laid 11 eggs and I got 4 normals 3 rustys and 4 licorice
Congrad!!!!!!!!!
P.s. your normals might be*** double hets ***

but....they were not a het to licorice breeding.....they were both licorice!!!!!! Shouldnt they be all licorice? isnt licorice a simple recessive and if both parents are homozygous for it, the babies should be also? im still unclear about what had happened here.

please elaborate....

If you crossed two white sided black rats and none of the babies are white sided, you now know something about the white sided trait. It may be the case that your snakes were hetro for other traits that when expressed, overpowered the expression of the white side trait just like a leucistic snake. It could also be that the trait is not a single pair of genes like you are thinking it is. There are other possible explanations, and I would be just guessing if I tried to give you a de facto answer.

n/p

Some years ago,I had a sub-adult pair of Amel Corns lay 5 eggs.The only two that hatched were both Anery's.
The female had never been in a cage with any other snake,so sperm retention is out.....I wish I had not lost this group

This one is an easy one to explain. There are two genes that can cause a snake the not express black or brown (amelanistic). If you cross these two types of albino snakes, the offspring will all look normal, but they will also be hetro for both types of the trait. If you were to cross them with any amelanistic corn, about 50% of the offspring would be amelanistic.

The way I see it is you have apair of licorice het for hypos but the guy who sold them didn't tell you or he bought them from someone else and he didn't know.

Hey Keith
I reread your post and you got me scrathing my head now ..no licorice .maybe two different strains of licorice .. type A breed to type B anerythristic corn produce normals corns
I would like to see your hypo's

And I may be way off here, but that in order to get any trait you must breed two adults that are het for the trait. i.e., say you take two albino black rats and breed them, they will not produce 100% albinos. You may get one or two albino snakes, however you will get normal looking babies that are het for albino. Then if you take those normal looking hets, and breed them to an albino, you should get majority albino babies with a few normal double hets!

So the babies you have now are normal looking babies, and possibly hypos that are het or double het for the white sided trait, and when bred back to a true white sided, you should get white sided babies and maybe a mix of hypo, that also may be het for hypo and whitesided.

Hope Im making sense, I know its all confusing and please if Im off mark here, someone please correct me.
-----

1.0 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes (MO locale)
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Yellow rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.1 California king snake (Coastal phase)
1.0 Prairie king snake (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade (KY locale)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

true.....but these are adult whiteside....... not het. not only one.....I WATCHED THEM COPULATE......

THATS what is blowing my mind!!!!!!!

lmao

you didnt confuse me.....my pair did lol

keith

ps i will have pics online tomorrow

Not quite. If the snake is albino, then it is homo for the trait. If you cross two animals that are homo for the same trait, the offspring will also be homo for the trait and should express it like their parents. What throws most people off is that there are two different genes that can cause a snake to be amelanistic. If the parents are the two different forms of albino, then the offspring will all be wild types that are hetro for both types of the amelinistic genes.

The parents are pure whiteside.....maybe there should have been some whiteside in the litter mix....but didnt actually make it lol

here is a pic of daddy.....and i think mom is in the pic as well but only a small corner......

anyone know if there is a type one and type two lic stick?

i know that happens in amels sometimes......but i was under the impression there was only one lic stick "whiteside" gene.......

daddy came from george miskinoms' origional stock, by his size possibly out of the first het. breeding of these snakes (he is almost 6 feet) and mom is also from this stock

either way im still confused and im waiting to hear from the guy i got them from (jayson baylon....who sold them for a guy maned bob) to find out what his experience with them were (they are proven before me.....

ill keep you guys informed

keith

>>Not quite. If the snake is albino, then it is homo for the trait. If you cross two animals that are homo for the same trait, the offspring will also be homo for the trait and should express it like their parents. What throws most people off is that there are two different genes that can cause a snake to be amelanistic. If the parents are the two different forms of albino, then the offspring will all be wild types that are hetro for both types of the amelinistic genes.
-----

1.0 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes (MO locale)
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Yellow rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.1 California king snake (Coastal phase)
1.0 Prairie king snake (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade (KY locale)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

the female was bred last year to a rusty(hypo).....and had rusty and normal babies......apparently she retained sperm!!!!!!

maybe next year she will give birth to the whiteside babies she was injected with this year!!!!!!! lmao

anyway.....that seems to be the most feasible explanation.....BOB McIvor jus emailed me that lil piece of left out info.....maybe George Miskinom will elaborate even more seein that he produced this pair and the ORIGIONAL whiteside line!

anyway.....thanks for all your posts

keith