Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this is what i know. tegus are more heavily bodied and more docile usually then monitors. what are the other differences between the two?

More docile? You obviously haven't met Ace, my Columbian B&W.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Coming from an evolutionary standpoint, monitors and tegus are not all too similar as many people think they are... Monitors are a member of the family of lizards Teidae, whereas monitors belong to Varanidae. Both have different requirements to their care, eat different things, behave differently, etc... As far as how tame an animal is, both animals would love to take a nip at you in the wild...it is in captivity, that we force these animals to be held, which in time, teaches them to be submissive, and that fighting to get away no longer works... Both can be "tamed" in this fashion, as many people have done, however, I don't see this as being too healthy for the animals psychological wellbeing...

As far as intelligence goes, monitors blow them away by no comparison... Metabolic rates are significantly higher in monitors too... In my opinion, tegus are big, fat, stupid blobs... that aren't anywheres near as inquisitive or entertaining to watch...

cheers,

bob

tegus are members of the family teidae... sorry for the typo...

I think your doing very well and are a very smart fella, but I get the feeling you are jumping why ahead of your experience.

Bob said;

in captivity, that we force these animals to be held, which in time, teaches them to be submissive, and that fighting to get away no longer works... Both can be "tamed" in this fashion, as many people have done, however, I don't see this as being too healthy for the animals psychological wellbeing...

I think you saying this shows a high lack of experience and tendency to "bandwagon".

Indeed you are right that what you said above happens. But that is not all that happens.

Indeed, there are "tame" monitors. There are indeed tame monitors that are not dominated by their keepers, but instead, co-exsist, with their keepers. example(nessies mom and her niles) etc.

There are also, "tame" monitors that bond with their keepers. This happens with all sorts of wild animals, parrots, ducks, chickens, racoons, etc, bonding from a very early age to their keepers. This bonding has nothing to do with dominance. While they bondings are misplaced behaviors and are not normal, they indeed occur.

I will say, I have tame monitors. Individuals that have no fear of me and for some stinking reason, follow me around and do not mine me manhandling them. Of course, I have to be sensitive to their needs, as If I interrupt something, they will have no problem putting me in my place.

Just for fun, do you call Goons rudis, tame? Do you call them dominated?

There are been many keepers, in the past and present, that have tame monitors, that are not dominated or kept poorly.

So if your going to respond to an issue, Please understand, there are other options. There are good ways to do anything, there are not so good ways, and surely there are really poor ways to do stuff. This occurs in all walks of life. I ask, why do you only mention the, darkside? FR

She responded with this

Goon said;
Posted by Dragoon on Mon - Aug 23 - 6:53pm:

D.

While I do not remember saying that, I do like it. I also, think, Goon has applied that method of taming, very well. Thanks FR

this guy was not so nice with his croc monitor... http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=160537

i have been bitten nipped and whipped myself but nothing compared to that.. i am quite nice myself

That has nothing to do with this thread, does it?

If you would like to carry on a conversation about taming, tame, or something pertaining to this thread, that would be great. But indeed, getting bit by any monitor does not have a thing to do with it.

The very first thing everyone needs to understand is, tame anything(monitors, dogs, birds, bears, your spouse) can still bite, hahahahahahahahahaha FR

well actually when that guy posted the pic of his hand he said it was a feeding mistake.....
i've seen a lot of people tryin to give croc monitors a bad rep lately, why?
i can't wait to get mine

Noone is trying to give them a bad name or call them anything off the wall. Your getting the facts once you have experience with them you'll find out.

They are not for everyone. They are not the only animal that is not for everyone many fit into that category. It's just a warning message.

I'm nicer to him than you are to your sav in a way that you wouldn't understand. Go save your sav before it croaks.

Hey frank,

I understand what you are saying; I was simply commenting on what the majority of what monitor keepers/tegu keepers do, as far as "taming" their animals... I think very few people actually give their animals the resources needed to allow their animals to become naturally tame... Many of my tree monitors have become well adjusted to my presence; some will even climb onto my arm to feed...something I never expected to see with my particularly skittish group of animals.. I have not handled them, unless they required medical attention/closer inspection, which has been rare occurrence with them. So they have come around on their own, in time, after much hard work and labor caring for them...not being 'forced'.

So yes, I 'missed' on the good ways of doing it...but like I said, I was speaking out about what the majority of people do...It's kind of hard, and nerve racking, for somebody who's looking at their monitor/tegu as a "pet", to not be able to hold/handle their pet until, the weeks/months/years it would take for the animal to become "tame" on their own.. I, for one, do not need/have a desire to handle my animals, I simply admire them through the glass...I guess in this sense, I have been successful. I agree with what you are saying, regarding animals coming around on their own, for I am seeing that with my own animals..but like I said, unfortunately, this is not what the majority of monitor/tegu/reptile keepers do, instead they 'force' their animals into being held...

I did leave out the 'other' part...shame on me...hahaha..Cheers,

bob

I don't find it hard, nor nerve racking to not be able to handle my monitors. I would really like to hold them, but most of the time they make it pretty clear that it's time to back off. I am disappointed that my water hasn't come to trust me after a year of working with her, but I'm the second owner and shes 15 years old... My experience with "forcing" a reptile to be submissive usually results with me being bit and a stressed out reptile. Neither are good for either party. I haven't been biten by my monitors, and don't intend to. Building the trust and impoving their care is the only way to go imho.

Your goal as someone giving advice, if thats what you doing? Is to allow people to see the possibilities, of possible better ways to see something. In other words, we all know how to tame monitors the wrong way, so whats some of the right ways?

It really does not matter how many tame monitors in a harmful way. What matters is changing that. Thanks FR

I have 2 savannah monitors and I'd consider both "tame". Hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'll be getting a digital camera and can take some pictures of me and my adult savannah, he's just like a dog. I have had him out since 2am and just put him back out about 10 minutes ago - fell asleep on me again and didn't want me to put him back in the cage (usual).

If it were dominance or "torture" as bob is making out to be, why would our monitors seem excited to see us? I've already found all the "weak" spots on my adult savannah, in particular behind his ears. He leans right into my petting closing that eye. He climbs up my chest and rests his head right on my shoulder, had him fall asleep while I was watching tv tonight, only moved a couple of times to get more comfortable.

Some monitors will never become tame, very well agreed upon. And I think it's worse for Bob who may/may not have reptiles and NEVER handles them because it would be too "dominating" I don't know about him, but we all have to clean our cages and when I do I take my adult savannah out who happily comes into my arms, let him soak in the warm tub, and clean his cage.
Bob on the other hand, will be doing battle with his human-hating reptile who he never handles because it's just so torturous on the reptile (not "animal" as Bob keeps calling them) and over all - stresses his repitles out more than any of us because he doesn't give them the handling and attention that they need and want.

So again not all monitors and reptiles become tame, especially older wild caught ones, but if you get a baby captive born and work with him every day it'll pay off in the long run.
My baby savannah I don't restrain AT ALL. Same with my adult savannah - I only support his weight, not actually restrain or hold him, he holds on to me instead. (Just as with the baby.)

Anyway long post but well said FR!

"Bob on the other hand, will be doing battle with his human-hating reptile who he never handles because it's just so torturous on the reptile (not "animal" as Bob keeps calling them) and over all - stresses his repitles out more than any of us because he doesn't give them the handling and attention that they need and want."

- I am not even going to waste my breath trying to respond to this...I think you should have gone for a hampster, instead of a reptile, as you are trying to place characteristics of a dog or a cat on a monitor...

I bet if I were to take one of my animals out, into my air conditioned house, for hours at a time, that they'd be docile too, and possibly cling to me for warmth, and maybe even "fall asleep"... I think you are totally misunderstanding your animal... Does your monitor like to surf and wear a leash, and go for walks around the neighborhood too??

have a great day, and I think you should do a bit more research about monitors, before you come here and start bashing on the animals that I keep...Thanks,

bob

The Odatriad

Now that I read your post below, about your savanah puking up its food, it's no wonder it is doing so... Since you have no knowlege of the general needs of monitors, but yet, come here bashing on my practices, you have a cold animal, dehydrated animal(oops, sorry, is animal not appropriate?), that you continue to feed, and handle....

"He's very skinny.) About 2 hours after eating the pinky, he threw it up along with yesterday's pinky. I take him out and he just lays there, I can put him on the bed and he just sits there and closes his eyes. He should be more alert, moving around.. but he's not sadly."

Yup, he sure sounds tame to me...boy, what am I doing wrong with my monitors? Why can't mine be skinny, cold, and sick lizard?

- a tip, Your monitor is not skinny, from lack of food...It is severely dehydrated, as most wild caught(captive born) animals are.. keeping him in an aquarium with a screen lid, which does not hold humidity does not help out the matters...He needs moisture/humidity, not food... Pumping a dehydrated animal with food, is only going to make the food rot in its stomach, hence the regurgitating aspect... not to mention he doesn't have a basking spot warm enough to properly digest if he was properly hydrated...

So again, please do not come here insulting my husbandry and practices, as you obviously are a beginner to this fascinating world of varanoculture... Take the time to browse the forum, for there is plenty of valueable and useful information here, that you can help improve your husbandry standards, as opposed to reading a book published by TFH telling you to give them a basking spot of 85F...

Cheers, best of luck with your sick monitor....I hope you make the changes to better/correct his life..

than you for that post. i enjoyed it alot.

Your "Animals", bosc, tough and sturdy, easy to raise with close to right husbandry.
Bob's "Animals", trees very delicate even in the best conditions.
Stress on these "animals" are light night and day.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

The falling asleep on your lap deal, is not normally "sleeping" it is normally being stressed into submission.

I do have a method to tell what your monitor is doing. First learn how to take your monitors pulse. Its very easy to do and will not disturb it. Simply slide your finder under your monitor, about 5/8's of the way, between the hips and shoulders. Their heart is almost mid-body. Then lift your finger until you feel the heartbeat. If the pulse is fast, its surely not asleep. Easy huh.

You will be surprised how, NOT sleeping it is. Thanks for learning. FR

"...the reptile (not "animal" as Bob keeps calling them)..."

You may be confusing 'animal' with 'mammal', corrupt. Monitors aren't mammals, but they certainly are animals.

In his case I'd say vegitable~

"As far as intelligence goes, monitors blow them away by no comparison... Metabolic rates are significantly higher in monitors too... In my opinion, tegus are big, fat, stupid blobs... that aren't anywheres near as inquisitive or entertaining to watch... "

are you joking bob? just curious, have you ever owned a tegu?

Yes, I have owned a pair of reds and a blue tegu produced by Ron St. Pierre. In my experience keeping them, they were by no means as active, inquisitive, or intelligent as any of the monitors that I have kept/keep. That is just an observation that I saw with my captives, which I also stated was my opinion.. I'm sure people may agree with me, as well as disagree with me. I prefer monitors, myself...

Take care,

bob

>>this is what i know. tegus are more heavily bodied and more docile usually then monitors. what are the other differences between the two?
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0.0.1 Varanus Salvator (Gator)
0.1.3 Varanus Exanthematicus (Adisa "long term captive" other 3 "yet to be named hatchlings"
2.0 Ferrets (Chaos & Kasha)
1.0 Cat (George)

But a bit bigger. The scale designs are completly different, the dentition are different, the body design is completly different, head shape, skull shape, tails are different.
A monitor an old world lizard has a much much closer relative in the new world, the gila monster, and thats obviously not very close. Tegus are new world lizards. Many major differences between the 2.

If you can't get your facts half straight, why amuse everyone? As Bob said initially, tegus are South American members of the family Teiidae, whose only representatives in the US are the whiptail lizards (Cnemidophorus). Teiids include Ameiva, Dracaena and a bunch of similar Neotropical genera of mid-sized, active lizards; there are also a number of small species, the so-called microteiids, which are more skink-like and secretive. The Old World lizards most similar to teiids are in the family Lacertidae, only one of which approaches the body size of tegus.

Fence swifts (Sceloporus) are Iguanian lizards. The family Iguanidae has been partitioned into several separate families in recent years, and Sceloporus is now placed in the family Phrynosomatidae. Other than the Malagasy lizards Oplurus and Chalarodon, and the Fijian iguanas, all of the "iguanid" lizards occur in the New World; the Old World ecological equivalents are members of the families Agamidae and Chamaeleonidae.

Teiids are not at all closely related to Iguanian lizards, and neither is closely related to the varanoid lineage (families Lanthanotidae, Helodermatidae and Varanidae). Tegus fill similar ecological roles to some mid-sized monitors, but the resemblances between them result from convergent evolution, not relatedness.

You can quote books and research papers all day, but you cant get a captive animal to do anything, especially what you claim in your research,hmmm. DOHHH!!! I cant wait until your handing out captive care advice from "Giant Lizards", or anapsid.org, hey how about those 95f basking spots.
Anyways, thanks for looking it up and giving the closest detail. It was a typo anyways, I meant whiptails...
Hey what are these???

From what I can recollect, you have not really contributed anything , or accomplished anything here on the forum. Sam has been open, and has talked about his own work and experiences out in the field, in an attempt to perhaps give us a better understanding of what a monitor is, so that it can then be applied to one's husbandry...regardless of whether you agree or disagree with what he found/saw...

This is the first picture you have posted, that hasn't been of Sobek and your fiance, or a weekly/biweekly growth update...I think that everybody needs to stop ragging on one another, with, "i bred this, or I got eggs from that, what have you done?".

You made a mistake in your post, and sam cleared up the mistake/confusion.. Why attack him?

Sams posted a few useful posts on this forum the entire time he has been here, the other 99% of them are insults, claims that others know nothing about monitors or anything, yet he cant prove any actual experience or knowledge except from books or research papers. He made a few posts recently that impressed me, then resumed attacking others. He could have typed his post as he did minus the insult, but he chose not to, so I showed a picture of something my animals have done, something that can be proven, something that contribuited to our hobby (provided animals and actual experience as well pictures). Sam has never even posted a pic, I post pics of Sobek, Shadow, Sedona, Squirt, my beardies, other reptiles, and friends animals that I help care for, I answered thousands of questions in detail to hundreds of people in a few years, Ive helped others without asking for anything in return, thats why I post here, to help others and learn from others.
You ask what have I contribuited, look at the archieves, I ask you to compare those same archieves with Sams posts or responses, youll find a small handful of responses or posts that he has done anything but insult. I wish he would post in the way he has a few times lately, that would make reading his posts worth while, most times he just insults other people.
You actually ask why I responded to him in truth, I responded to him in kind for this remark, I simply showed something I have done. I post pictures of REAL animals, of live breathing, growing animals, producing animals and by the way the last measurement on Sobek was 3 months ago, since she was a year old her growth was not measured more than once a month.

"Posted by: SamSweet at Sun Aug 29 22:11:44 2004"

"If you can't get your facts half straight, why amuse everyone?"

This is an example of 99% of his work here.

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe, you-all are fighting and I am not evolved, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Sorry, but truely, it seems everyone fights with everyone, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, and they try to blame me, hahahahahehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Well now. I think Shvar does very well, what we do not do well, hes very good with beginers. You and I, seem to hit a target they are not aiming at. hahahahahahahahahahahahehehehehehehehehehehe God I love it. And Sam, he just shoots in the air and hopes to hit anything, hahahahahahahahahahahahahehehehehehehehaha he misses all these boats, his boat is in another sea(forum)hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
OK, those are bearded dragon eggs. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, speaking of eggs, I have to dig up two dang clutches, dang I hate monitors, all they do is lay eggs. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry, but this is way to funny.

Whats funny to me is, one of the first generic names for ozzie monitors, was the name they now use for Tegus, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh man, my stomach hurts. FR

Hahahaha. Gotcha, Frank

Of coure you're evolved; we all are. Evolved into what is the question. (Sorry, I know it was a 'Frankism typo' but I couldn't resist.)

Love ya!
Leslie

I am so hurt Mom, tears streaming down my cheek.

But your not the cause, the dang ants got a wonderful clutch of eggs. Hate ants FR

Yeah, I hate ants, too. All the Florida fire ants want to come in since all the rain with Charley. I'm sorry to hear about the eggs. That stinks.

Leslie

Some of us don't need to look that sort of stuff up -- amazing, isn't it?

that was pretty funny sam. when i was 4 i could have probably broken up the anole family that way too. i think i can do it with some monitors, lol. thanks,

andrew

n/p

But none the less tegus and monitors are nowhere close to each other.
This happens when you get typing too fast sometimes..
Oh, and tegus make a good meal for large monitors.
"Here tegu, tegu, tegu, come to Sobek, momma needs a full stomach."

The Tegu is not related to the fence lizards. Spiny lizards or fence lizards or swifts used to be in the family Iguanidae which is now divided into 15 or 20 different families now. I believe they are now classified in the family Phrynosomatidae with the horned lizards but I,m not 100% sure (they sure look alot like tropidrid lizards if you ask me) but they are definately in that Iguanid complex of families. You are probably thinking of the racerunners in the genus Cnemidophorous which are the only historically indigenous North American members of the Teid family. Personally For the sake of this argument. I have a black and gold tegu that is 10 times nastier than any of my monitors could even think of being and I have twenty monitors of various species(mostly waters.) Based on they way that tegu acts I am convinced that if they were as large as Komodos, South America would still be uninhabited.

Where I stated it was a typo, related to whiptails, not swifts. A good friend has had several nasty tegus, which have bitten me handling them while cleaning cages etc many times, one was a B&W, and the worst one by far has been a false monitor tegu, been years since I saw one of these, hes been named after the demon on Exorcist. Ill admit one thing, with regular leather work gloves on the tegus bites are more or less like a pinch (3-4ft B&Ws), but Ive been bit by monitors that even my heavily padded welding gloves wouldnt protect me from. I have as a matter of fact a piece of bone floating in the end of a finger from a 4ft WT, the bone broke on the side of the knuckle a year or so ago when he slightly missed the mouse and crunched my finger along with the mouse, just a quick accidental bite, he never tried hard at all. I could show you a sweetheart of a male red tegu 4ft long that just doesnt seem to stop growing, hes my friends one tegu.