Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a 3 year old female eastern that for some wiers reason cannot hold down a meal no matter how small. i figured she has a low level bacterial infection as there is no reason for this problem,all other easterns are doing awesome. was wondering from the people here can direct me to what medication and on what dosage i would use.. i have flagyl panacure and access to other medication. the vets up here will not be of any use to me as they are not savy on reptiles and no fecal can be taken as meals don't stay down....thanks for any help......eric

Look at this website, find a herp vet, and get ready to drive, and spend some money. There is a herp vet locator list at this site. Use it, quick! www.arav.org
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

i am in toronto canada...and the closest thing to a herp vet is online forums,we really have to do it ourselves here. what i am looking for is the dosage and which to use...i am assuming flagyl....t is this terry vandevedner??? sorry about the spelling.

You have to be kidding - I'm in Canada as well and I've been able to find a herp vet wherever I've been living. You are not only in one of the best cities in Canada for herpetoculture, you're so near a huge veterinary college in Guelph it isn't funny. Stop making excuses and get to a competent herp vet. If you can't be bothered to use www.arav.org (which does list Canadian herp vets) phone pet stores and ask who they use.

I finaly found someone that has worse punctuation than me! Joking aside please tell me the temprature gradient(,High and low) that your Drys experience on an average day. P.S. Don,t worry about punctuation, I am glad you are seeking help. Bill

ya i know,i have been meaning to proof read what i post but why start now,but all kidding aside temps are not an issue.i have 3 easterns all in their own cages and stacked on top of each other and the other 2 are fine. i have briefed 2 of canadas top snakes keepers...dwight sawyers and another gentleman who have seen my setups and they are fine. it appears i will try tetracycline(sp)in low dosage and am also going to give my vets a rectal swab for analysis to be sent off.

Why are you using Tetracycline? Do you have some reason to suspect that the offending pathogen is an anaerobic rod-type bacteria? Tetracycline can be a harsh drug and may even cause further problems. If you have not been advised by a veterinarian to use it and don't know the pharmacology of the drug, then don't do it. The worst thing you can do is panic ans just start giving drugs just because you have them.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

A few recommendations:

1) Quarantine this animal immediately so it is not even in the vicinity of your other snakes. Always service this animal LAST. If this animal has something nasty like crypto, you might consider putting it down but let a good vet make that call as you don't want to misdiagnose the snake (other ailments can mimic crypto that can be treated).

2) Find a good reptile vet right away who can do a full fecal

3) Check your environment; I am assuming you are providing the proper temps (70 to low 80's)...if temps are too high, this will certainly cause regurg problems. Make sure the snake has plenty of FRESH water.

Good luck. Rob Carmichael, Curator of the Wildlife Discovery Center

Indigo snakes almost never regurgitate unless there is something wrong. High temps (as previously mentioned) will cause regurgitation, but outside of that I think you are probably looking at some sort of protozoan or other parasite. I don't know if you feed fresh or frozen rodents food items, but live or freshy killed prey items are one way that captive snakes can get parasites.

Indigo snakes are particularly sensitive to medications and dosing. You can cause much more harm than good by trying to treat without having some idea of what you are treating for. If the snake is already dehydrating, you definitely want to be very cautious of how you proceed. Many of the drugs used to treat protozoans and helminths are very nephrotoxic and even more so in dehydrated animals.

It is also important to make the distinction between regurgitating and vomiting. If the snake is bringing the food back up within the first 18 to 24 hours, then it is regurgitating. Regurgitating is bringing the food back up from the stomach. If it is keeping the food down more than 24 hours, then it is vomiting. The food will be largely digested and VERY smelly. Vomiting is bringing the food back up from the intestines, after it has already passed through the stomach. Regurgitating indicates the culprit is an organism that stays mostly in the stomach. Vomiting indicates that the culprit is an organism that stays mostly in the intestinal tract. This can be useful in narrowing down the probabilities.

A snake that can't keep a meal down will not likely provide a fecal sample to analyze if it has already emptied it's gut. This can also make medicating problematic because if the snake won't keep food down, it may not keep medication down either. If you can't get a fecal sample, then you will need to do a lavage. If the snake is regurgitating, then a gastric lavage is indicated. If it is vomiting, then an intestinal lavage is indicated. It takes special techniques and skills to analyze a lavage. If you don't have a centrifuge, a good microscope and the staing materials and skills to properly use it, then you are not likely to be successful.

The things you need to look for are:

For regurgitating OR vomiting:

1. Coccidians, most likely Eimeria sp., possibly Isospora sp. Treatment is with Sulfadimethoxine (Albon).

2. Protozoans, such as Giardia sp., or Entamoeba invadens. Treatment is with Metronidazole (Flagyl).

3. Pentastomids. Treatment is with Ivermectin. This one requires extreme caution and accurate dosing. Ivermectin can have severe neurological implications if improperly used.

4. Least likely, but possible is Cryptosporidium serpentis. If this organism is found in numbers large enough to cause clinical signs, the prognosis is bleak. There is normally also an assosciated secondary infestation of Pentasomids or one of the Protozoans. Diagnosis of C.serpentis is much more difficult and requires special staining techniques. It may not even be possible to find with a lavage, a stomach biopsy may be required. There is no available effective treatment for Crypto at this time. Some animals have been saved by use of aggressive supportive therapy, i.e.; IM fluids, tube-fed fluids, etc., when started early enough, but those animals have continued to shed infective oocysts even after they were no longer clinical themselves. Experimental treatment with Hyperimmune Bovine Colostrum in concert with aggresive supportive therapy shows some promise but is not yet proven.

For vomiting:

1. Heavy Ascarid infestations. Treatment is with Fenbendazole (Panacur).

2. Heavy infestations of Strongyloids. Treatment is with Fenbendazole.

3. Heavy infestations of Pinworms (Oxyurids) or Hookworms (probably Kalicephalis sp.). Treatment is with Fenbendazole.

4. Looped or impacted intestine, or some growth causing intestinal restriction. Treatment is by surgery.

5. A very large attached Tapeworm (probably Taenia sp. Treatment is with Praziquantel (Droncit). Normally by the time you have a tapeworm of a size large enough to cause a vomiting problem (because of intestinal blockage), you would have seen Tapeworm segments in the stool. Also, you would have noticed that the snake fed normally, but failed to gain weight.

It's also important to remember that when a snake regurgitates or vomits it causes an irritation to the digestive tract that will cause subsequent bouts of regurgitation if the animal is fed too soon. It's important to wait at least one week before attempting to feed the snake again so the irritaion and inflamation can have a chance to heal.

So, you see that it is important to seek the help and advice of a herp-experienced veterinarian, even if you have to drive for a while. If you don't know which medications can be given concurrently and you don't know what the offending organism is, then you can end up treating for the wrong thing and wasting time while your snake continues to go downhill. If you try to medicate, even with the proper medication, and miscalculate the dosage, you can kill your snake with the drugs. With some of these drugs, if you don't properly rehydrate the animal when you treat it, the drugs may kill it.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

wow thanks it makes it much more clear,she brings it up less than 24 hrs after eating. temps are between 70's to lo 80's. i have already contacted my vet and am doing a anal swabb and will get it analyzed(sp) she periodically will keep a small meal down and at 1st thought it was stress but i have taked measures to releive that....ie covered up on 1/2 the cage and a nice hide box and at the tops so away from prying eyes. she is not dehydrated and is in top shape..other than the regurg. as i understand indigos cannot tolerate hi dosages of med...i have the dosages for all other snakes that i keep(gtp's) and have the working knowledge for this....thanks eveyone i do appreciate then help.