Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i fed my 1ft sav. a peice of smoked ham lunch meat .he took to it right away and seemed to like it ,,,did i make a mistake???this is not his regular diet he feeds on fuzzies and rat pinks usaualy..is there any health issues i need to worry about with this feeding???has anyone else ever fed lunch meat or anything?? any input on this would be helpful thanks
ron

Depends on what you mean by "mistake". I wouldn't feed my monitor lunchmeat, but I also doubt that feeding it lunchmeat once or twice would kill it.

Of course, I'm no monitor expert, but it's still meat. And monitors do eat meat. If I had to make a guess, I'd say that your monitor is fine as long as you don't make a habit of feeding it lunchmeat. Stick to bugs and mice.

Theres no harm to offer it on rare occaision, but not to be a regular food item.

Smoked ham or any other processed meat
should never be offered to any animal.
I wouldn't feed it to my dog and offering
it to a monitor is definitely bad husbandry.

Let me ask you a question if you eat pizza every once in awhile, is that bad?

Yes, I consume processed food intended for humans,
even when I know it is unhealthy. That it my concious
decision of my own free will. What does that have to
do with captive monitors?

Cause feeding your monitors some fat greasy smoked processed ham once in awhile is not bad, and is not necessarily bad husbandry. Husbandry can only be defined by your monitors, not you. Lets see what your monitors look like.

you handled that like a champ...good luck with your croc....i worry about a bad bite sometimes...although my crocs are pretty calm...i always watch out over head...anyway it's lucky the bite didn't go deeper....have fun...billy

Thanks alot Billy, it's almost all healed up. Left a nice scar but no ill effects. This guy that bit me has been aggressive from the get-go though and I took a dumb chance that I could've avoided, but no biggie. I guess monitors are like a box of chocolates, ya never know whatcha gonna get lol.

Best of luck with your guys as well!

Hey, what have your animals done?
When I say fed on rare occaision I mean once in a few weeks or less, but you may question anything you please to, their diet is made up of whole animals, no canned food, no processed grain products (dog and cat food), no eggs on a regular basis (but I might start disposing of beadie eggs on occaision with my monitors), and no turkey burger magic monitor food (tried some at one time on occaision with some of my monitors).
Note most times when someone is looking for alternative foods for their monitors they want to know if its good to feed on a regular basis or to feed as a basis, no, neither is the case with any of this stuff other than whole animals. If I had the picture Id show you an ackie devouring a single slice of pepperoni, but I wont say its good for them, also mine has eaten cooked pork once, hmm, once in 2 years of his life so far.

Why do you care what people use? And whats with the condescending voice? MAgic diet - that magic diet has 5 years of research behind it. I still like to rotate diets, but don't make remarks about things you haven't researched. Thanks

If it doesnt work as good as whole animals why should I use it or research it any further. I have an ackie that was raised on turkey diet and insects for his first year, I bought him and fed him insects with an occaisional quail after that and hes doing great. Other monitors Ive tryed it on didnt do quite as good as on whole animals. Feed what you want to to yours Ive found something that works better. As long as Ive used whole animals as a basis for any diet they recieve they do better than any other diet Ive tried, what more evidence do I need? Whos being insulting or condescending, holey cow, I mentioned a fact, all of the sudden Ive insulted someones sensibilities.
Hows the colony of WTs doing at SDZ these days?

"...turkey burger magic monitor food..."

If that isn't sarcastic and condescending, I don't know what is.

Its a sarcastic label like our current governor "one term Eddy". Sorry bud, its not like I insulted him or his mom. I remember this quote from someone else who alot of people thought (myself included sometimes) they were pointing the finger although it was a generalized statement not directed at anyone, it went something like this "if the shoe fits then wear it", obviously if it doesnt then dont worry about it.
I said it didnt work as good as whole animals as a basis for a diet it doesnt mean you cant use it, I include a bunch of stuff Im sure most here wouldnt feed them but only on very rare occaisions, after all my albigs dont eat that much now, they spend a few days underground at a time. My ackie spends part of each day underground but eats hundreds of crickets every few days, along with lobster roaches, and on occaision a day old quail.

np

Im sure you dont use turkey burger with your monitors, do you? I thought so, so why defend it if you dont or havent used it? Just to argue a point thats why, oh no it was a typo, you meant to argue with someone else. Right!!!

...actually, I do use the SDZ diet. Yes, I've even bred lace monitors on it. Sometimes I use it a fair bit, sometimes I use it as an occasional 'filler' meal. It depends on the price and availability of rodents at the time. To tell you the truth, I'd rather give my monitors rodents all of the time, but sometimes it isn't possible or doesn't make logistic sense. We have a smaller market here so at times frozen rodents can get very expensive, or unavailable in any usable quantity.

Due to a number of circumstances, my female laid her first clutch last year feeding on nothing but the SDZ diet, from coming out of winter to laying six weeks later. All but the one infertile egg hatched and the juveniles are robust and growing rapidly.

What I am saying to you is that your limited experience with SDZ diet does not allow you to make sarcastic remarks about it. If you choose not to use it, don't, but there's no need to dismiss the time and effort people at the SDZ have put into researching it. No one is forcing you to use it, you could say 'I choose not to use it' rather than referring to 'turkey burger magic monitor food'.

Why is it that whenever someone disagrees with you, SHvar, you think it's a random personal attack 'just because'? Sometimes people disagree with you because they disagree with you.

When I respond to a post and say "I dont use it because it didnt work near as good as all whole animals", as I use peeps, insects, and quail besides rodents, and someone makes a point to make it personal, it tells me its a personal attack, I dont attack others unless responding in kind, so why if I disagree with an opinion does it seem that a few people go out of their way to continue to argue? You say it worked for your animals, great, go for it then, it didnt work as good as whole animals though, so with the choice I have to use what works better for even less why should I agree with the opinion that its just as good?
My limited experience, hmm, anyways, no I havent bred lacies a few times such as you have this year, but then again I dont even have a lace monitor, for that matter as Ive said a million times to you and a few others "I dont have the space to breed them, or even the space to consider it now". I plan on getting a female ackie after I have the space (hopefully in a few weeks or so), after building a very big cage for Sobek (priority 1). Afterwards, the next plan is to obtain a pair of whitethroats and another very large cage. Ive already introduced Shadow to a few female BTs his size without him showing any interest in mating or them, so I guess the incubation defects are further than I imagined, he has a lot of problems, you would have to see him in person to understand, that and the Xray of his vertebrae and ribs, pictures just dont show much of it..
For now Im so busy digging up bearded dragon eggs every 3-4 weeks on schedule from a female thats been laying 21 eggs each time since she was 10 months old, as well taking care of a multitude of other animals in a friends collection of rescued animals and a multitude of snakes and other beardies that are breeding as well on a regular basis. He cant sell the beardies, or the snakes fast enough, they just keep coming. Oh and we will be setting up an adult pair of argus soon, they are separate for now. Im trying to keep this as a hobby, not a job, its better that way.
13 years with monitors, and around 20 with other lizards and snakes, ya compared to some thats limited experience.

I really don't need to read about beardies, albigularis with dodgy spines, female ackies, your fiance or your housing situation. What has any of that got to do with me?

Nor am I arguing with you about whether or not SDZ diet is good, bad or indifferent. Neither one of us has enough experience to judge that. I've had good experiences with it, you've had less than satisfactory experiences with it. In both cases it is inconclusive, considering the hundreds of variables involved and the small sample size. I mentioned that I have bred lacies on it only because you said that I don't use it and claimed I was arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not.

What this discussion is about is your surprise that Jeff L found your remark about the SDZ diet to be sarcastic. I agreed with him that it was a sarcastic remark and that you really aren't in much of a position to judge whether or not the SDZ diet is good, bad or indifferent. Telling someone that it's okay to feed pepperoni or smoked ham to a monitor on occasion but that you wouldn't use the 'turkey burger magic monitor diet' is a bit much, you have to admit.

I didnt say not to use it at all. Basis- the average, the majority.
On occaision- rarely, infrequently.
Anyone who uses the stuff with less than satisfactory results as an only food source for a period of time, doesnt need a larger sample group to say it doesnt work as good as whole animals. It doesnt work as good, like you said you have problems obtaining rodents etc sometimes, by all means its a temporary fill in for whole animals. I never advocated pepperoni, or anything else, the ackie ripped up one piece of pepperoni in his over 2 year existance, and whats the difference between lean cooked pork on a rare occaision and lean cooked turkey? The ackie eats insects every day with miner-all on them, thats his diet basis, once in a few weeks he gets some cooked pork with miner-all on it.

As I said, this discussion isn't about whether SDZ diet is good, bad or indifferent. Neither one of us has done research into it and is in no position to judge that. This discussion is about you referring to it in a sarcastic way and then acting surprised when Jeff called you up on it.

I know that you like to argue and argue and argue things so you can get the last word, so go for it. You can have the last word. But keep in mind what this discussion is about.

I may be just a "troll" but I believe that I have more
knowledge and experience than shvar, however I would
never think of arguing with DK. I mean I have a sizable
book collection and one or two with DK's name on it. I
don't think I have any with your name on the cover shvar.
Furthermore, on another site I have seen photos of DK's
mind blowingly gorgeous Lacie habitat. The haphazard
caging seen in shvar's photos speaks for itself.

By the way, please keep your pics of ackies eating pepperoni
to yourself. There are already too many who think they should
feed their monitors like a stray dog.

By the way I also have a few books on monitors and other reptiles, but that doesnt say the authors are automatically correct or accurate. What I know of DK is what he says on a few forums, and what hes done with his monitors, or rather what they have done. A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors.
What is the extent of your experience or knowledge on monitors or reptiles? If your gonna say youve got more knowledge or experience, can you stand behind it? So far Ive read every post by you, you have appeared from nowhere about 2 weeks ago and have shown or done nothing other than your ability to troll and answer 2 questions. Not a single post of yours tells or shows a single monitor or any reptile, for that matter even mentions one from your care or collection.
So far I dont think anyone with the common sense to read over page 1 only on this forum is amused by you or your posts/responses.

DK's "pretty" cage works well enough that his monitors do not become dehydrated or eggbound requiring surgical intervention.

With all that reptile experience you have one would think you could have sexed your own female albig.

Maybe you have just been keeping reptiles poorly for 30 years.......

Anyways Ive learned from Sobek, Ive learned from every monitor Ive had over 13 years. I also can say Ive learned from FR, and from Rob Faust, Steve B, Mark Bayless, and a few others. But Ive always noted that after one of them would tell me something or after a learning experience you woould pop from the wood work to claim you told me so. Only you never called Sobeks sex (until after I learned and admitted it, FR was the only one who said he "thinks she is female, but is not completely sure", I believe you were one that said she wasnt full of eggs, again, wrong but youll point the finger in hindsite after you are already told for sure. You said she was eggbound then because of an infection, no dehydration, hmmm.
Hindsite is 20/20. You have alot of good experience to share Richard, but you choose to not be constructive too much. Again, Ive not seen or heard of many of your mistakes, I tell the world mine, helps to teach others. Although I have seen and read about a few, but Im not trying to cause problems by waving them in your face, kinda like a 12 year old.

Use the search function bonehead. I told you a few times she was a girl and that she was dehydrated.

All I got from you was that all of your experience tells you she was a male. Then some ridiculous math to justify her cage size.

Then suddenly "he" was eggbound, imagine that.

Maybe you should build a pretty cage like Doc's. Oops, too late.

The cage shes been in since before she cycled and became eggbound was and is 4x4x8 feet. Now, hows that bogus or funny math. Hows 1.5feet of dirt from one end to more bogus math. Its all fact, its in my pics. Now, about suitable cage sizes, yes hers is too small, but not for long hopefully, next is 10x6x5ft. How are you able to say my monitor is in a smaller cage yet Im the one who built the cage, Im the one who sees the cage every day, youve never seen it in person yet you say something different, come on, get a clue. the only one who said they thought Sobek might be a female before I new for sure was FR, you chimed in afterwards and said see I told you so.
I remember a response from you in a discussion where you said about funny math in a cage size, yet youre the one with a 3.5ft argus and an almost 5ft argus in a 3x8ft or 3x7ft horse trough with from 1-2 feet of dirt (varying depths), wheres the funny math, 2 monitors in a smaller space compared to the same amount of dirt as a cage just a bit longer and wider and higher with one monitor 6ft plus in it.
Ive posted pics of my big white box that Sobek lives in plenty of times at the size its been since before she was 1.5 years old, its still 4ftx4ftx8ft with 1.5ft or dirt with a suspended basking light with 4- 45 watt outdoor flood bulbs (on the far right side) over 2 layers of 3/4 inch plywood (3ftx4ft)with 2x4 edges forming a stack over an underground burrow over 6ft in length that she dug with a rounded chamber to sleep in. She has 3-5ft pieces of corkbark to climb or hide on or in, and a water dish big enough to drink for now. Check the search feature you can verify all of this in my old posts, even the pics.

As I said, check the archives.

You will find I told you Sobek was a dehydrated female in a crappy cage.

You will also find that I had two crosses, not argus (I know, I know, another "typo" ) that were not even close to 5'. Those crosses went on to produce many clutches and hatchlings. Nope, no surgery required here.

I used to wonder why you posted everytime Sobek grew a millimeter and I think I've figured it out. It's all you have. All these years of keeping monitors and the only thing you have to show for it is an albig that grows at a normal rate.

How on earth can you feel justified criticizing someone elses results, when you haven't even come close to their accomplishments?

Ive simply stated you calim to have said this and that after it was verified, as I said noone but FR was saying that until afterwards, period. Like I said you and DK stated I used a 6x2.5x18 inch cage for the whole time and she became eggbound in it. Im telling the truth, I see the animal every day, I take frequent pics of her in her cage etc, yet I guess those are lieing to. I must have fixed the pics right? Im not nor have I criticized your animals results, so tell me about your gouldi complex monitors and what they are housed in, I remember discussing it with you as a horse trough, I remember it was between 7x3 to 8x3ft with as you stated 1-2 ft of dirt depends where they shift it to. The animals are in any case 3-5ft each, correct? There are 2 kept in the cage, correct? Im asking you to verify details.
You insist I was keeping Sobek in a smaller cage the whole time or even when she cycled, no, I care for the animal I know what conditions she was and is kept in, she was in a temporary cage while I built this one, then she became eggbound after living in it (I know it took almost a week to build, and set up around my work shedule etc).
As you said she grew normal, why is it then nobody else period has a normal growing, normal sized albig? I was amazed by her normal growth, because nobody has an albig that grew normal like her, or even in very rare occaisions close to her, why is that, ask why noone else has that happen, they are commonly kept in captivity. Why is that, tell me, you seem to claim and run your face every now and then, but wheres all of those other normal albigs? Ill tell you why, its not a common, or normal occurance in captivity. I like how I was accused to stuffing her with food to make hger grow so fast by one guy, and another says it was normal growth but there are no other female albigs within almost a foot of her and many are much older. I just let her grow normal, she used what I offered and ran with it. The only thing I have to hang on to huh, how pathetic are you Richard to make a statement like that? Oh by the way I remember during one of your criticizms FR said to you and others, "he has a beautiful animal that is growing at an amazing rate, yet instead of trying to figure out how the animal is occomplishing it, you are criticizing and telling him hes wrong", "you should try to find out how or why its doing so good."
Ive told every bit of my husbandry along the way, every mistake, and events that happened, I charted the first years growth every 2 weeks from 2 months old to a year old, then once a month I measured her, so try as you might you can only lie about someone else for so long, Ive corrected your statements yet you just insult and refuse to acknowledge the truth.

You should search the archives. Your "results" speak for themselves, you have done nothing in all these years.

You are exhausting so I will quit now.

Amazing, youve done nothing but harass me from the beginning since I first posted on Ksnake, or anywhere else Ive posted, you were warned on another site for it. Yet Ive never said you lied about your animals results, Ive never criticized your husbandry as being wrong, Ive compared how our cages are very similar, because you insisted Sobeks cage was so small but you also wrongly referred to the cage being a different cage than it is, yes I used a vision cage with 3-4 inches of dirt for a few weeks to keep her in while I built her current cage in my busy schedule, and yes I proudly admit and announce every one of my mistakes with my monitors husbandry, they were learning experiences. Ive seen a few posts with your mistakes in the last few years or so but I dont refer to them as your track record, I refer to what your collection has accomplished, as good. I have no idea what the problem is, why you just have to seek someone out to engage in conflict.
I asked you to verify the size on the argus or argus cross cage your pair lived in, after all I admit Im keeping a 6 plus foot albig in a cage for now thats too small at 4x4x8ft with 1.5ft of dirt in it. You said about funny math which I dont understand 4x4x8ft with one 6ft 2inch monitor in it, compared to 2 monitors between 3-5ft each in a 7x3 or 8x3ft trough with the same amount of dirt in it. All I ask is how is that less suitable?

This thread started as a question of feeding groung turkey and other foods.
How in the hell did it end up with a argue and insult thread?
How do threads like this help anyone in this hobby?
If ya'll want to dissagree and argue, fine by me but this gets ridiculous.
They have a thing called email and istant message if ya'll want to argue about pointless subjects, do us a favor and try these.
Just my opinion.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

No one asked you to read or add to this thread. If it offends you, don't read it.

"What I know of DK is what he says on a few forums, and what hes done with his monitors, or rather what they have done. A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors"

Where did I refer to his cage? Please, all of this crap over a comment that was not even directed at anyone. Hahahaha, amazing proves either you never read the comment or you were just looking for a reason to argue.

This is what 'amused' said to you:

"...Furthermore, on another site I have seen photos of DK's mind blowingly gorgeous Lacie habitat. The haphazard caging seen in shvar's photos speaks for itself..."

This was your immediate response:

"... What I know of DK is what he says on a few forums, and what hes done with his monitors, or rather what they have done. A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors."

I believe you when you say it wasn't my cage you were referring to. Now you'll have to believe me that all of the things I said about Sobek and her caging weren't about your monitor called Sobek, they were about a hypothetical monitor called Sobek that anyone might have somewhere.

Are we settled, then?

"A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors"

When Sobek was 5.5 feet she was living in an 6 x 2.5 foot vision cage with no substrate. We all saw the photos, she could barely turn around. You kept saying "when I get room, I'll build a bigger cage", yet you insisted on feeding her up so you could brag about how fast she was growing (ad nauseum, bi-weekly updates with measurements to fraction of an inch and weights to fraction of an ounce, along with a photo of her next to your fiance). You also continued to collect more monitors (Shadow etc).

You had an adult albig you couldn't sex, that became eggbound because it was housed improperly.

You keep telling us that you have had 13 years experience with monitors, yet have no 13 year old monitors. Your oldest monitor is, what, 3 or 4 years old? What's happened to the others? And before you start asking me how old my monitors are (I've been keeping monitors for four years. My oldest monitors are four years old), keep in mind that you don't see me bragging about how many years experience I have had. I used to kill reptiles unintentionally when I was a kid, through improper care. I don't count those years, nor should you.

Glass houses, bucko, glass houses.

Glass house, huh???

Anyways, my oldest monitor is a wild caught over 6.5 years in age. My oldest in this house will be 4 in November. Sobek was a learning experience, yes, Ill admit it all day, but to point the finger and not know what the true story is, your wrong. Besides I admit my mistakes, and learn from them, you never tell about any mistakes, oh I guess the degree makes you too proud for that, last word huh???
Feed her up, really I offered her resources, she used them, she used what she had and grew on her own. To purposefully hold them back is wrong, obvously you dont believe so going by your own words, Glass house again..
I had her in a vision cage while I built a 4x4x8ft cage, hmmm, lets get it right. Im not worried about what you or anyone else thinks about my monitors I post about actual experience and direct people to others who can help also, Im not here to get the last word in like you always are, proof, look in the archieves, glass house...
I put Sobek by the way in a cage with the wrong dirt, a few hundred lbs or so then she cycled, she wouldnt dig in that crap became eggbound from the wrong substrate, my mistake, I switched it as fast as I could, but she wouldnt lay in the next week or 2 even though she was digging in the new dirt as I was adding it (took a while), I didnt let her go beyond week 4, as others have done. I remember others going to week 6 and dead monitors, hmmm.
She cycled in the 4x4x8ft cage, not the temporary vision cage.
Watch your running out of windows buddy.
Sobek is more than a learning experience, a possible breeder to risk, shes a member of the family, she was from the start, I didnt want to risk any future problems, so I had her ovaries removed along with 44 eggs.
I admit to my mistakes to try to prevent others from making them to, Im not to proud to admit to making them, you know taking responsibility for them. I learn from my mistakes also. There are many points over 20 years I didnt keep reptiles, the years I was in the army, some time in college, recovering from a cycle accident, etc. But 13 years Ive learned from my animals, after all what books were out or available to learn from then, giant lizards, need I name more. I didnt have a computer or internet access until 5 years ago, I didnt visit internet forums until after I got Sobek, yet I still had animals to learn from, and its been a long learning experience, some good lessons , some bad.
The question was aked by the way of mister "amused" about his claimed knowledge or experience level on monitors.

If you don't believe that I copied and pasted your exact quote, here's the post

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=558562,561700

"...but to point the finger and not know what the true story is, your wrong..."

That's rich coming from someone that has just made assumptions on the functionality of my enclosure without having a clue and has also told me that I don't use SDZ diet without having a clue whether I do or not.

"...oh I guess the degree makes you too proud for that..."

What is it with your obsession with my degree? Show me a single post where I have brought my education into any of these arguments, or even mentioned my degree.

"...To purposefully hold them back is wrong, obvously you dont believe so going by your own words..."

Given the choice between slowing an animal's growth or having it live in a 6 foot cage when it is 5.5 feet long, I know which I'd choose. Actually, I wouldn't get a large species of monitor if I couldn't house it. No, I don't think it's wrong to not give your monitors all they can eat so that they grow incredibly quickly. In your case, it would have been a very good idea.

"...I post about actual experience and direct people to others who can help also, Im not here to get the last word in like you always are...

Really? Actual experience, huh? Show me which part of the following statements have your actual experience in them:

"...Im sure you dont use turkey burger with your monitors, do you? I thought so, so why defend it if you dont or havent used it?..."

"...A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors..."

You think it's okay to tell me what I do and don't do, or tell me that my enclosure isn't functional, but if I defend myself that's getting the last word in?

"...The question was aked by the way of mister "amused" about his claimed knowledge or experience level on monitors..."

That may be, but if you are going to start making critical assessments of my husbandry you had better be prepared for me to retaliate.

I answered this but Ill repeat again.
She was in a 4x4x8ft cage I built (so how do you know what shes in) before, after and still to this day. She became eggbound in the 4x4x8ft cage not the temporary cage, I have pics of this cage and her in it from before she became eggbound at a year and a half old to present, I described this cage in detail to a response to RSG, as its been described in detail since I built it. That was the cage that I used the man made dirt that she cycled in and refused to dig or nest in, that was the cage that took me almost 2 weeks between work and other resonsibilities to dig, sift, transport, carry, and fill with dirt from a local creekbank which she dug like mad and tried to nest in. I also mixed some field dirt and 6olbs of sand with all of that dirt. Check the search feature youll find that also.

Because we all saw those photos. And it wasn't that short a time you had her in there, either.

I don't care if the eggbound incident happened later, it still happened and was a clear sign of something wrong. If you read my post you'll see that I state the cage size and eggbound incident on two separate lines, two separate paragraphs. Even if she didn't become eggbound in her 6 foot Vision, having a 5.5 foot monitor in a 6 foot Vision sucks. No getting around that.

In the end, I still don't think you are in any position to criticise the functionality (or lack thereof) of my enclosure. I'm not saying it is perfect by any means, but that's not for you, of all people, to judge.

Falling apart, getting too small, etc. It was a temporary cage. She was 5.5ft at the time of her eggbinding at a year and a half old in the current cage. She was not in that cage for very long at all, her cage was built in less than 2 weeks, she cycled in April, the cage works good for snakes though at my friends place.

I just described it in detail in 2 responses, yet you ASSUMED different and ACCUSED me of different. Hmmm, interesting. Should I copy and paste the details on here?

I'll explain the expression. The original expression was 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'. What it means is that, before you criticise, you had better take a good hard look at yourself to make sure you aren't guilty of whatever it is you are criticising others for.

You were criticising my enclosure as being pretty but not functional. I was pointing out the inadequacies of your enclosures. As I have said in my other post, I don't care if the eggbound incident happened after she was in her little Vision cage, they are both examples of poor enclosure setups.

"I was pointing out the inadequacies of your enclosures."

1)How have you seen her cages in person, yes the vision she stayed in a few weeks was too small, and the this 4x4x8ft sice then is getting too small fast.

As I have said in my other post, I don't care if the eggbound incident happened after she was in her little Vision cage, they are both examples of poor enclosure setups.

They both examples huh, how about improper substrate, Ive said that a million times but again you assume, and insist that its the way you have said it happens, I see the animal every day, you are are in Astralia, how can you tell me whats happening with her, you are simply making up your own story because you dont like the truth, Ive said improper substrate, not a litle cage. Did I talk to you on the phone about it when it happened? No, but I spoke to FR and Rob Faust both.

What I said: "As I have said in my other post, I don't care if the eggbound incident happened after she was in her little Vision cage, they are both examples of poor enclosure setups."

What you said:

"They both examples huh, how about improper substrate...Ive said improper substrate, not a litle cage..."

In my world, a proper enclosure or proper setup is everything, including substrate. You were criticising my enclosure as being pretty but not functional, how would you describe an enclosure with an improper substrate? I don't care how big it is/was/will be. If it means having to get eggs and ovaries surgically removed from your monitor IT JUST AIN'T FUNCTIONAL.

Again, I'm not here to criticise you and the care of your animals. I am simply pointing out that you, of all people, are in no position to judge whether or not my enclosure is functional.

"In my world, a proper enclosure or proper setup is everything, including substrate. You were criticising my enclosure as being pretty but not functional, how would you describe an enclosure with an improper substrate?"

1)Ok, lets start here, I mentioned how A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, if it works good for the monitor thats what matters, not if it looks good to your neighbors, did I point to your cage in particular? No, Mr. "amused" stated you have an awesome cage that looks good, I responded. If you believe that that meant your cage then thats your choice, FRs quote "if the shoe fits wear it, if not then dont worry about it".

"I don't care how big it is/was/will be. If it means having to get eggs and ovaries surgically removed from your monitor IT JUST AIN'T FUNCTIONAL."

Dont criticize the cage because of my bad choice for top soil, I refer to substrate as substate, yet the cage is a box, right?

"I am simply pointing out that you, of all people, are in no position to judge whether or not my enclosure is functional."

Again I never criticized your cage, I said "a pretty cage" when responding to mr "amusings" comment.

Twist, squirm, twist. You're a classic.

'amused' made a direct reference to my enclosure, your response was this:

"What I know of DK is what he says on a few forums, and what hes done with his monitors, or rather what they have done. A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors."

Now you're telling me that you weren't referring to my enclosure.

Give me a break.

By the way, substrate is part of an enclosure/setup. What's the difference between a pretty cage and a functional one if you don't take cage furniture into account?

If you believe it was about you then go ahead and believe so. But dont tell me Im a liar, we both quoted the same parqagraph, the same 2 sentences. Does it say "DKs pretty cage doesnt mean its a good cage", I dont think so. You can twist the idea, and add words all you want, but the quote still says the same thing, a cage.

"Twist, squirm, twist. You're a classic."
I havent been twisting squirming or changing my words, they stand as they were and are, you may assume what you choose to, but dont call me a liar. The words are still the same. The only one squirming or twisting words is you.

I decided to quote that responce that offended you so much.

"What I know of DK is what he says on a few forums, and what hes done with his monitors, or rather what they have done. A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors"

Now, you felt offended by a comment on a hypothetical cage? This whole arguement was over you misreading or overeacting to a comment about a cage to someone who mentioned yours.
Hey, Im sorry if you believed it was about your cage, but theres the comment, amazing how easily you can misunderstand or misread what someone types. I believe you misunderstood, but Richard has gone out of his way to be rude for no reason too many times to be coincidence.

This is what 'amused' said:

"...Furthermore, on another site I have seen photos of DK's mind blowingly gorgeous Lacie habitat. The haphazard caging seen in shvar's photos speaks for itself..."

This was your immediate response:

"... What I know of DK is what he says on a few forums, and what hes done with his monitors, or rather what they have done. A pretty cage doesnt make it a better cage, a useful cage looks good to your monitors, not your neighbors."

I believe you when you say it wasn't my cage you were referring to. Now you'll have to believe me that all of the things I said about Sobek and her caging weren't about your monitor called Sobek, they were about a hypothetical monitor called Sobek that anyone might have somewhere.

Are we settled, then?