Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering what everyone else uses for substrate. I am setting up a couple of new Ter. and want to use different substrates. So I thought I would create a post and maybe get some new ideas. Thanks in advance for any information.
Josh

i use bed a beast or similar product, gravel can also be used

I've used bed-a-beast, Jungle mix, plain straight cocoanut fiber that is meant for outdoor bedding, and all work just fine. You just want to avoid anything with Peralite, Vermiculite or fertilizers. The first two are merely annoying, as they stick to the frogs and float on the water, clog waterfall pumps, etc. The latter may pose a health problem for the frogs and the fertilizers aren't necessary to keep you biological system going. Washed down frog poop does this. Just be sure you have either a false bottom or some kind of sharp drainage you can sump the excess water out of on a regular basis. Separate this with a layer of gravel, covered by some sort of plastic weed inhibitor to keep the substrate from filtering down into the sump. You can just take a length of aquarium airline hose, stuff it into the bottom and over the top into a jug, then siphon the excess water out. Any kind of vet syringe will do, prefereable 30 cc. The nipple fits right on the airline tube, and all you have to do is pull the plunger back to start the siphoning.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Slaytonp,
Thanks for the advice. The tank will definitly be drilled and have a false floor made out of recessed lighting grid and plastic screen. When you say, "plain straight cocoanut fiber that is meant for outdoor bedding" does it say that on the package? Does it hold up better over the long run? I was thinking about using a cocofiber mat as a divider between the gravel and dirt, but not as actual soil. From what I have researched using a mixture of bark chips, peat moss, and mulched sphagnum, Treen fern fiber. Any ideas? Thanks again for for you thoughts. Any other info would be helpful as well.
Thanks,
Josh

The outdoor type cocoanut fiber comes in big bales, or bags, like peat moss. It has more coarse fibers in it, but I haven't found this to be a problem and it's a lot cheaper if you are setting up other tanks eventually. I haven't used it long enough to compare its breakdown with the Bed-a-Beast, but should think it would be about the same.

I have recently used the cocoanut fiber matting (like the door mat grade) between soil and false bottom and it seems to work very well. I've also used the permeated weed blocker plastic sheets and these also seem to work, and of course don't break down at all. I've also used this matting between the glass and cork bark on the vertical backing. The problem here is that it doesn't wick or hold water very well and remains rather dry if you're growing plants on it and the dry stuff is rather rough on frog skin, I should think. (I haven't detected any skin lesions on the frogs, at least not yet.) The pressed cocoas fiber panels are ideal, but they are extremely expensive for some mysterious reason. The various prices I've paid have ranged from $15.00 to $18.00 for a 7"X about 18" panel. In one 18 gallon high tank for a pair of imitators, I used a one of these pressed panels over the false bottom with no soil at all on top. It's planted with a tiny creeping ivy and Java moss. The splashes from the waterfall just filter right back through. This also works very well for these frogs that aren't on the bottom much.

I like the brown sphagnum, but have found the osmunda fiber to be coarse and wiry. Although the frogs in the tank where I used it around an orchid never actually got tangled in it, I became afraid that they would and removed it.

Your plan sounds really good to me. There are a lot of different choices that work well. I don't think I've ever done the exact same thing twice. The bow tank pictured here in the early stages with the waterfall and waterway sculptetd from Winterstone turned out to be high maintenance because the Winterstone leaks water and I have to replace this and sump out the excess daily. Have fun with this and let us know how it turns out--post some pictures.

Patty

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Patty,
Thanks again for the great info. I will check into the cocoanut fiber at my local garden store sounds like it should work well. I will probably go with the cocoanut fiber mats for the divider of soil and clay pellets. I am actually setting up a 30XH for my imitators. They are such neat frogs to keep I just purchased them about 3 weeks ago as juvs. Do you breed them? How well do yours do? Mine are looking good. right now I have them seperated and one of them is super fat but the other two are a little skinny I can't figure out why cause they do eat. It can't parasites cause they are cabitve bred. Any ideas? I feed them everyday with dusted fruit flies and occasionally week old crickets. But any how the backs of the tank will be covered with tree fern fiber panels for bromeliads and orchids to attach to. The bowfront is looks great nice and lush! Well again thank you for the info and I will post pics once I get the tank going. Thanks.
Josh

There always seems to be one juvenile imitator that is fatter than all the others, bolder and if you watch, eats more. It will usually end up by being a dominant female. When conditions are right, they are eager breeders. In a group however, a dominant female will breed with a male and chase off rivals. If you happen to have a couple of pairs together only one male seems to do the breeding, while the females will compete with each other for his attention and ignore any other male, if there is one. They may even mess up and eat each other's eggs, eat them, and fight a lot. A couple of my females actually competed over who got to feed the first single tadpole with infertile eggs. This was the first breeding and I just let it go its course while watching the show. This was one well-fed tad. We named it Baby Huey, although it turned out to be a female. After this, other attempts at breeding got frantic, and the male was putting more than one tad in each bromeliad cup, then ignoring them (they are cannibalistic, so didn't survive,) while going back to fertilizing eggs all over the place. After identifying male and female, which is relatively easy to do once they are into the breeding mode, I've now separated individual pairs into different tanks. While this isn't as much fun to watch, there are less tad losses if you prefer to let them raise their own. Otherwise, you need to scoop out the tads as soon as they are deposited and raise them yourself.

They show breeding activity at about 5 months. The first eggs may not be viable, but they finally get it right.

Once you get them into the main terrarium, be extra careful about sealing it against escapes, and be really cautious when you open it to do any maintenance. Like all thumbnails, these guys are quicker than lightning and can leap out, perhaps even unobserved. My only dart losses so far, have been from escapees that dry up on the floor rapidly unless you see it and can recover them immediately. A rule of thumb, which I used to think was silly, is that if a fruit fly can escape, so can a thumbnail frog. I've had some sad escape losses I couldn't explain, so now I truly believe this.

If they have a suitable habitat and you have at least one of each sex, these guys will breed. You have to listen carefully for the males calling, then identify which one is doing it before you can sex the male for sure. You can also tell females by the way they act. They are the gladiators and wrestlers, and are very aggressive. While this looks deadly, I've never seen an injury from these sometimes prolonged contests. I'd advise learning their individual markings, such as the difference in the size of spots and patterns on the head. Otherwise, they might just all look alike when you turn them loose in their permanent habitat.

I'm really excited to see how yours do.

Hopefully, you have at least one of the opposite sex in your group of froglets.

The photo is of Mom chasing her own juvenile delinquent, (Baby Huey) away from the bromeliad where it's been peering at another sibling she is guarding.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Hey Patty,
Ok so I just wrote a huge response back to you and I went to submit it and it is gone. For some reason it didn't post it. So this one will be short. So anyways, I hope that the biggest of the three is a dominant female and the other two are males. That would nice. I was hoping to get at least a pair out of the trio I purchased. Now as far as rearing the tads, do you take out all of the tads and raise them your self? Just curious. Also you should send me your email and I will send some pics to you of these little guys and there setup. Right now I am in the process of getting the cage ready. It will be very exciting when the day comes. If you want me to send pics just shoot your address to my email or wait I guess I could just post them on here. I will just do that instead but just in case my email is joshkinsey@hotmail.com. Thanks again.

It's more efficient to remove the tads and raise them yourself, but I haven't actually done this. The closest I came was when the parents continued breeding instead of taking care of one little tad that was in a bromeliad cup. I left him there, but swiped eggs from the females to feed him, along with a little fish flake.

I'm sure people here would like to see your photos, but I am particularly interested. My e-mail is: slaytonp@atcnet.net
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Thanks for the info. I will work on the tank this weekend and hopefully get it done. If I do I will send you some pics ASAP. Take care and wish me luck.
Josh

I am partial to using coarse media like 1/2 and 1/4" coconut husk chips combined with activated charcoal. That's what I use in almost all my tanks. It works especially well for epiphytes like broms and orchids, and that's predominantly what I grow. Ferns also seem to like it, as I have to constantly pull out volunteer ferns (my friends don't seem to mind much).
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Homer W. Faucett III, esq.
Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

Jkins,

One of the best substrates that I've ever used was LECA (light expanded clay aggregate) It's basically little clay pellets and is made for orchids but it works well in dart frog tanks. It keeps the humidity up while providing good drainage. You can get large bags of it at Home Depot.

P.S. Post those pics of your frogs and terrarium.