Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just got a call back from the veterinarian on the test results. The "pus" tested positive for a highly resistant bacteria called Citrobacter freundii. Apparently, this bacteria is resistant to most antibiotics, with the exception of Amikacin and Genomiacin. It is also HIGHLY transmittable to humans, animals, and other snakes via cuts or body fluid exposure. I have a pretty good immune system (getting 1 or less colds a year is a good thing), so I probably won't have a problem, but I called and left a message with my doctor's office to have them call me back so I can find out if there's anything I should worry about.

He is being treated with 0.02M of Amikacin daily right now. I use surgical gloves to handle him to minimize exposure. He has not shown any progression of the infection since the initial dosage of Amikacin. He is in shed right now, so as soon as he sheds, I will take updated photos of his condition.

-cat
-----
My collection and herp photography

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

>>Just got a call back from the veterinarian on the test results. The "pus" tested positive for a highly resistant bacteria called Citrobacter freundii. Apparently, this bacteria is resistant to most antibiotics, with the exception of Amikacin and Genomiacin. It is also HIGHLY transmittable to humans, animals, and other snakes via cuts or body fluid exposure. I have a pretty good immune system (getting 1 or less colds a year is a good thing), so I probably won't have a problem, but I called and left a message with my doctor's office to have them call me back so I can find out if there's anything I should worry about.
>>
>>He is being treated with 0.02M of Amikacin daily right now. I use surgical gloves to handle him to minimize exposure. He has not shown any progression of the infection since the initial dosage of Amikacin. He is in shed right now, so as soon as he sheds, I will take updated photos of his condition.
>>
>>-cat
>>-----
>>My collection and herp photography
>>
>>
>>www.lowergroundreptiles.net

Yikes. Citrobacter freundii is a nasty little bug. It is one of those that has the ability to quickly mutate and become resistant to antibiotics and antimicrobials. It is in the same family as the Enterobacter sp. It is a glucose fermenting, gas producing Gram negative rod that produces a heat stable toxin. Zoonose is a very definite possibility with this little guy. At present (or at least as of the latest documentation I have) there are 11 species of Citrobacter and 139 strains of C. freundii. Some are resistant to the Gentomycin class drugs, others are resistant to the Cephalosporins, some are resistant to Fluoroquinolones such as Ciprofloxacin (veterinary equivalent is Enrofloxacin), still others are Aminoglycoside resistant. Normally a culture and sensitivy test is needed to find the appropriate drug unless the strain has been positively identified.

Good luck and make sure to use all the proper precautions handling and treating that snake. Unlike things like E. coli and Salmonella no level of Citrobacter is considered "normal". Any presence is considered pathogenic.
>>
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>>>Just got a call back from the veterinarian on the test results. The "pus" tested positive for a highly resistant bacteria called Citrobacter freundii. Apparently, this bacteria is resistant to most antibiotics, with the exception of Amikacin and Genomiacin. It is also HIGHLY transmittable to humans, animals, and other snakes via cuts or body fluid exposure. I have a pretty good immune system (getting 1 or less colds a year is a good thing), so I probably won't have a problem, but I called and left a message with my doctor's office to have them call me back so I can find out if there's anything I should worry about.
>>>>
>>>>He is being treated with 0.02M of Amikacin daily right now. I use surgical gloves to handle him to minimize exposure. He has not shown any progression of the infection since the initial dosage of Amikacin. He is in shed right now, so as soon as he sheds, I will take updated photos of his condition.
>>>>
>>>>-cat
>>>>-----
>>>>My collection and herp photography
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>www.lowergroundreptiles.net
>>
>>Yikes. Citrobacter freundii is a nasty little bug. It is one of those that has the ability to quickly mutate and become resistant to antibiotics and antimicrobials. It is in the same family as the Enterobacter sp. It is a glucose fermenting, gas producing Gram negative rod that produces a heat stable toxin. Zoonose is a very definite possibility with this little guy. At present (or at least as of the latest documentation I have) there are 11 species of Citrobacter and 139 strains of C. freundii. Some are resistant to the Gentomycin class drugs, others are resistant to the Cephalosporins, some are resistant to Fluoroquinolones such as Ciprofloxacin (veterinary equivalent is Enrofloxacin), still others are Aminoglycoside resistant. Normally a culture and sensitivy test is needed to find the appropriate drug unless the strain has been positively identified.
>>
>>Good luck and make sure to use all the proper precautions handling and treating that snake. Unlike things like E. coli and Salmonella no level of Citrobacter is considered "normal". Any presence is considered pathogenic.
>>>>
>>-----
>>We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

My big question is... I've taken precautions regarding skin to skin contact with the little guy since the pustules appeared. Should I also be wearing a surgical mask? Or is Citrobacter only transmitted through skin contact? I can find little information on C. freundii.

-cat
-----
My collection and herp photography

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

I don't think it's been found to be transmitted by airborne means, except by close contact airborne transmission (sneezing, coughing, etc.). However, it is fairly easily transmissible by skin contact, especially with infected body fluids. I would wear a mask just in case of a splash and to prevent inadvertent face-wiping with my hands.
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

There is a very powerful antimicrobial called colloidial silver. This is pure silver suspended in water through an electical precipitation method. This product is available in most health food departments and is very effective in treating just about ANY kind of infection. It's properties allow it to attach itself to an unbelievable amount of pathogens and other impurities.
It can be used externally on the wounds and internally, though I don't know much about how to dose a snake internally.
Your snakes gut flora will be killed off during it's antibiotic treatment ( not the silver). This gut flora should be reintoduced during and after this period. I believe a product called Benabac (?) supplies this needed gut flora?
It has long been known to me that a helpful gut flora exist in almost all animal life. If this flora is disrupted, other bacteria can grow and threaten the health of these animals. It is possible that this is WHY the snake has contracted this infection in the first place as bacteria have toxins against other bacteria, just as plants in the forest have toxins ( called photo toxins) to inhibit competition. The reintroduction of beneficial bacteria back into your snake could be the ticket to it's recovery against this viralent intruder.
If nothing else, it will strenghthen your snakes overall health.

Question,... Would it be good to give snakes this stuff on a regular basis to keep the benificial bacterial population healthy, and therefore make it more difficult for the bad stuff to get a foot hold, so to speak? Or would the periodic re-introduction of the good stuff cause problems?
T.
-----
"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

In nature, many animals eat their own feces or that of their parents to introduce or re-introduce beneficial gut flora. I imagine that since snakes are strictly carnivorous, this also happens with every meal, as their food contains this gut flora as well. (along with potential pathogens and the like.)
I believe Beneback ( or whatever it's called ) has directions for doseing, but for humans this flora ( called acidophilus) can be taken daily. This is the same bacteria found in yogurt.
Since snakes do not feed every day, I assume the product can be injected into the food item and given at meal time to sustain this flora.

How would you know that it's even the same species of bacteria in humans that are considered beneficial gut flora as it is in snakes?
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

From what I understand this "colloidial silver" is snake oil and sold to people who don't believe in modern medicine or science. If it is really valid then you should be able to provide real evidence of it's effectiveness. Got any papers published in magical journals ? In addition, any doctor or vet should back up your claims.

I can tell just by reading your post that you are not telling the truth. Silver suspended in water is still just silver and without any magical properties. There are not "properties" that allow silver to "attach itself to" bad stuff. How does the silver determine what is bad and what is good? It must be the magic added by silver tongued snake oil salesman.

Sometimes the Snake Oil Salesman are not to careful about the products they promote. Sometimes they sell poisons as cures for illnesses. In the 1800s the Snake Oil Salesman sold mercury as very powerful cure all with magical properties. It turned out to be a poison.

>>There is a very powerful antimicrobial called colloidial silver. This is pure silver suspended in water through an electical precipitation method. This product is available in most health food departments and is very effective in treating just about ANY kind of infection. It's properties allow it to attach itself to an unbelievable amount of pathogens and other impurities.

Our society has made huge advances in medicine to where we can now cure cancer, small pox, measles, and numerous other diseases. We did not do this with witch doctors, magic potions and superstition. We did it with science and the scientific method. We should follow the same process with treatment of our reptiles.

Conrad
-----
Peace through Strength
War through Weakness
Defeat through Kerry (like Johnson)

I found the following description of how colloidal silver is suppose to work. Read it with a little bit of common sense and you will know that it is a fraud:

How It Works

The presence of colloidal silver near a virus, fungus, bacterium or any other single celled pathogen disables its oxygen metabolism enzyme, its chemical lung, so to say. Within a few minutes, the pathogen suffocates and dies, and is cleared out of the body by the immune, lymphatic and elimination systems. Unlike pharmaceutical antibiotics, which destroy beneficial enzymes, colloidal silver leaves these tissue-cell enzymes intact, as they are radically different from the enzymes of primitive single-celled life. Thus colloidal silver is absolutely safe for humans, reptiles, plants and all multi-celled living matter.

The most obviouse clue to it being a fraud is the use of pseudo scientific analogies. I also like the chemical lung and suffication analogy best.

Lastly, how does this stuff know what is bad and what is good ? Anything that kills "virus, fungus, bacterium or any other single celled pathogen" would be able to kill human or snake cells and be a poison. It must be that bad stuff radiate bad vibes and this silver stuff has a builtin bad vibe detector.

Conrad
-----
Peace through Strength
War through Weakness
Defeat through Kerry (like Johnson)

n/p
-----
"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".