Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys,
Been a long time since I’ve been here…
Some of you may remember me, other probably don’t care lol
This is a long post, so beware!

I had 2 litters in 2003, one was from a nice normal BCI (Autumn) who was mated by my het albino male (Bud). She had 30 babies of which 28 survived (the 2 which died were runts/twins). The other litter was from my female albino (Lemondrop) and the same male (Bud). She had 14 babies and a bunch of doa and underdeveloped. My main questions deal with her litter. There are 3 possible reasons I believe she had such a high number of dead babies… I understand there is no way to know for sure at this point.

1. I did have a temp problem when she was first being bred; my temps were almost 10 degrees too low. She was mated with the male for about a month before I noticed the temp problem, at that time I moved the male into the other female’s cage and upped the temps. (Notice, the other female had a nice big healthy litter! Besides the live, she had one slug, one deformed and one underdeveloped.) The albino did not ovulate until a month after I upped the temps, so basically for 2 months she was ‘holding’ the male’s sperm and one month of that time the temps were too low. (I honestly didn’t even expect her to have babies.)

2. They may be related; I purchased Bud and Lemondrop (her name was Kelly) from a private owner who got them both from P.K. in 1998. I contacted PK and he verified they were purchased from him but he wasn’t sure if they came from the same litter. Maybe they are littermates and that caused some genetic recessive defect to show up when bred together? (ps, please don’t just respond: “albinos can’t breed, their genes are junk” I know some of you dislike morphs and granted, there may be some disadvantageous genes along with the albino gene, but I believe if there is, it is more a problem of in-breeding than the simple fact that it’s an albino.)

3. It was her first litter. Although it was Autumn’s first litter too…

I have had a large amount of the babies from Lemondrop’s litter die off. Of the 14 that were born live (7 albinos and 7 hets) only 4 are still alive today (2 albinos and 2 hets). The albinos are both male and the hets are both females? Some died in the first few days, some didn’t die until just 4 months ago. I sold a few of the hets and ended up having to refund money to some people because the baby would die the next day or two days later (and I had die-offs the same time with the babies still at home). One female het I sold is still doing well at her new home. The other het and albinos I am keeping for the time being until I can either figure out what is wrong or at least feel more secure about their ability to keep on surviving. They are a year old at this point.

Unfortunatley, I did NOT have any necropsy’s done on the babies which died, and I do not have the equipment or knowledge to be slicing them up myself and trying to determine what went wrong. I do not know if it was a genetic problem in the genes of these babies or simply the low/bad temps during the start that compromised their development in some way. I am leaning towards the latter simply because all of the other babies from the Autumn’s litter are doing fine (I have half the litter still, but they are going to a local reptile shop soon).

In your opinion, do you believe I am doing the right thing holding onto the rest of Lemondrop’s litter? (I planned to keep one of the albinos anyways, but I didn’t plan to keep her other 2 babies, plus the one I am keeping from Autumn’s litter… so I really don’t want to hold on to this many in addition to the rest of my collection.)

When would it be ‘safe’ to consider selling the remaining 2 babies or should I not sell them at all? (This is the ethical part of my question) I didn’t *have* to give people refunds before but I felt it was nothing on their part that was done wrong. How long after I ship should I consider giving a refund if I know there could be some unknown problem (and I disclosed that concern to the buyer)?

Should I consider taking one to the vet (I haven’t found a good reptile vet in this area yet) or would I be wasting my time? I wouldn’t even know what tests the vet should do or if they would be able to detect anything wrong?

I did not breed any snakes this past year and I may or may not breed anything this coming year, I haven’t decided yet. I did NOT plan to breed Lemondrop and Bud together again. Should I breed them and see if I have the same problems (and heartbreak)? Or just leave it alone and don’t breed them again ever? (please note, this is not to make money, in fact the little I did make from the one het that sold was more than ate-up by refunding the shipping costs of the others that died when I had to ask the buyers to ship back the body.)

Sorry this is so longwinded, but I do appreciate any opinions or ideas about these issues. I am just a small-time keeper and want to be doing the right thing on the ‘business’ side of this. Thanks all and happy herping.
-April
absoluteconstrictor.com
(I also lost my snow motley corn and my female BRB due to my maintenance errors here in Vegas. I am not having a good snake year in 2004)

Hi April,
It is good to hear from you again and of course I remember you LOL.
My thoughts on the whole breeding issue…….

I don’t think that it would have been a temperature issue in the early breeding of your snake. The reason I doubt this was the problem is the fact that your babies were mostly developed when born. If the too cool of temps affected the breeding way back then, there would be either infertile slugs or no breeding at all. If the males sperm was “held too long” it would have never fertilized the ova and the babies would not have developed.

If I would have to guess on a reason that she dropped the babies to early to survive I would say that it would be 1 of three likely reasons, The Albino Morph….. No I’m Just kidding, I don’t think it has anything to do with the genetic Morph, possibility 1) Lemon Drop did not have sufficient body reserves to support the size litter that she was going to have so her body dropped them early to save herself. 2) She contracted a bacterial infection that affected her digestive track and caused her to have contractions and give birth prematurely, or 3) She caught a viral infection (a cold, not VD) which caused her body to drop the litter early to reserve her own health.

Now for the second part of your question and the ethical dilemma you find yourself in. First, congratulations on seeing what the ethical question would be. Many would not hesitate to sell the babies considering that value of them, regardless of knowing that they might not survive. Second, seeing that the babies were still showing serious/fatal health issues as soon as four months ago, I would say no to selling the snake out right. If you know of someone that would like a pet Albino of a normal Boa as a pet and you explain the situation and discount the price accordingly, I would say yes. But I would have to assume that there is some sort of major internal defect with the majority of the litter that caused them to die off as they did. It is possible that the 2.2 that have survived the first year are fine, but with out knowing for sure, I would feel uncomfortable selling them as a normal healthy offspring. I also would not breed the babies, ever. The defect probably are from being premies and are not genetic, but I would not be willing to breed the animals to see.
I know that this is not the best case for you, but I think it would be the most ethical thing to do.
I hope this helps some.
Good Luck

-----
Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

This type of thing happens alot when people breed other critter pets before their mature and or stable health wise.
I`m a third Gen Pit-Bull breeder and I`ve seen all there is to see in that cruel world over the years and its not a breed specific world either !Happens to all animals, Herps of all kinds as well.
But there comes a time when things just arent right with a breeding and the entire event is voided.Why ? Cruel? No !!
I`ve personally seen it done as well as done it myself. Bloodline Integrity is EVERYTHING and to compromise is Devistating. Call it a ripple effect if you will(simpler term)
Future Snake(s) welfare first
Then your Personal Reputation second
As harsh as it may sound to *many* a complete culling is in order for that litter.
I would do everything I could to insure that both snakes be bred again. Strict attention to detail this time around,I`m willing to bet the rewards will far out weigh the negatives of today.
In any buisness or hobby theres good days and bad days and then theres days that sting pretty good.

Get back on the horse and RIDE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT !!

T/

>>Hi April,
>>It is good to hear from you again and of course I remember you LOL.
>>My thoughts on the whole breeding issue…….
>>
>>I don’t think that it would have been a temperature issue in the early breeding of your snake. The reason I doubt this was the problem is the fact that your babies were mostly developed when born. If the too cool of temps affected the breeding way back then, there would be either infertile slugs or no breeding at all. If the males sperm was “held too long” it would have never fertilized the ova and the babies would not have developed.
>>
>>If I would have to guess on a reason that she dropped the babies to early to survive I would say that it would be 1 of three likely reasons, The Albino Morph….. No I’m Just kidding, I don’t think it has anything to do with the genetic Morph, possibility 1) Lemon Drop did not have sufficient body reserves to support the size litter that she was going to have so her body dropped them early to save herself. 2) She contracted a bacterial infection that affected her digestive track and caused her to have contractions and give birth prematurely, or 3) She caught a viral infection (a cold, not VD) which caused her body to drop the litter early to reserve her own health.
>>
>>Now for the second part of your question and the ethical dilemma you find yourself in. First, congratulations on seeing what the ethical question would be. Many would not hesitate to sell the babies considering that value of them, regardless of knowing that they might not survive. Second, seeing that the babies were still showing serious/fatal health issues as soon as four months ago, I would say no to selling the snake out right. If you know of someone that would like a pet Albino of a normal Boa as a pet and you explain the situation and discount the price accordingly, I would say yes. But I would have to assume that there is some sort of major internal defect with the majority of the litter that caused them to die off as they did. It is possible that the 2.2 that have survived the first year are fine, but with out knowing for sure, I would feel uncomfortable selling them as a normal healthy offspring. I also would not breed the babies, ever. The defect probably are from being premies and are not genetic, but I would not be willing to breed the animals to see.
>>I know that this is not the best case for you, but I think it would be the most ethical thing to do.
>>I hope this helps some.
>>Good Luck
>>
>>-----
>>Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
>>Hopkins Holesale Herps
>>Hopfam1@aol.com

Hey T,

Thanks for the response, I know what you are saying about the pit bull breeders too. I have put down a snake before (and
a couple of fish) but it is very hard for me. (just like killing the rats was when I fisrt started keeping snakes and before I found out about f/t)
You are probably right that I should put down the litter, and if it had been 10 months ago I probably could have done it. At this point, 2 of them have names! I really do attach myself too much sometimes. I don't like to put them down...
But I will do it when I have to!

For now I'm just going to keep them, I've got the space and feeding 18 isn't much different than 15 haha.
I told my boyfriend I wouldn't be selling them for a while and they'd have to stay here for another year or more, I'm hoping he'll just forget about them.
thanks again for the reply,
-April

Hi Jim, I understand what you are saying about the temps. I expected either all slugs or nothing at all, when I looked in and saw the babies I was very surprised.

I have a feeling it was one of two things, either becase she was young or there was an underlying health problem.
She was 4-4.5 years old so probably a year too soon. The guy I bought them from said he saw them breeding the year before but nothing came of it. (he wasn't trying to breed them at that point, he just kept them in the same cage.)
She MAY have an infection and I don't know it. When I got them it was kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing and I had to keep them in seperate jumbo rubbermaid tubs until I could order the cages they are in now. They were in the 'temp-housing' for almost 2 months. The humidity built up a lot and the tubs were opaque, as a result they both had nose rub. I fixed the humidity issues and self-treated the albino, her's wasn't very bad, I just cleaned and rinsed the area and applied some neosporin. The male's was much worse and his entire nose swelled up, I took him to the vet who did surgery to remove the puss and I gave him anti-biotic shots as perscribed. (cost quite a pretty penny! lol)
Perhaps this is the root cause and I need to have blood work done on the female? She doesn't have any symptoms (the male had surgery back at the end of 2002) and eats fine, her mouth coloration seems good, but from what you said maybe I shouldn't rule it out?
As for her size, she was pretty big, just over 25lbs and 6.5' long.
What do you think?

I do not plan to breed her this year, even tho she put back on most of the weight (I didn't want to fatter her up too much). But I would like to try her again at the end of '05 as long as it wouldn't hurt her.

As for the babies, yeah, looks like I'll just be holding onto them for now! I felt so horrible about the ones I did sell that died. The people were always very nice about it tho. About half the litter that was born was 'premature' looking... most of those died in the first few months. One of the albinos that is still ok was one of the 'underdeveloped' looking ones. He seems to be going ok, but I wouldn't be surprised to walk in and see him upside down one of these days. the hets (the one I sold and the one still here) and the other albino (pic below) all looked 'normal' when born... although that doesn't mean much I guess since a few that died looked fully ok too.
I was really hoping to breed this albino below to some of my other BCI's in a few years. Maybe he will just have to be a show snake..
thanks so much for taking the time to reply, I value your opinion very highly!
Take care,
April

I agree with Jim and to ad to that one thing I have been told and from experiane here believe it to be true is that if an animal is going to slug out or is carrying mainly all slugs they will normally drop a couple weeks early. So the one female in question may have felt there was more slugs in her and ejected them early. I amy have overlooked it but was this her first breeding? if so that could ad to it. I dont know of anything in snakes but in rats and mice the labs have done research and first litters are genetically weaker then 2nd or 3rd litters. The moms are not as ready(body, mentally etc) first time around. Your second third forth litters are always stronger then somewhere there about they start going back down hill. One thing I have nnoticed in the dumerils, not all but many of the first time mothers seem to have a smaller birth size(average weight of the litter is several grams less), Id hang on to them and see what happens ods are any you have left are fine but Id think its due to her probally having them a little prematurly
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

first litter for her. I'll keep my fingers crossed for the future tho.

thanks for the reply