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This is our biggest blood python. This gorgeous oxblood female is well over six feet long. She’s a well-mannered and docile snake. She’s just laid 24 perfect eggs, no slugs. She shed 30 days ago. [center][/center]

I really like these big black-headed oxblood morphs. This is what I think of as the “original” blood python, but we now know that there are many natural-occurring appearances.

VPI, the biggest producer of beautiful bloods

np

Dave, I have been wanting to ask you something. In your professional opinion is it possible for a breeder to somehow inject young male snakes with a spermicidal to render the male reproductive organs inoperable? Or if not that, to somehow permanently damage the reproductive organs to render them inoperable? I figured if anyone would know it would be you. Any help on this would be appreciated. Thanks.

>>This is our biggest blood python. This gorgeous oxblood female is well over six feet long. She’s a well-mannered and docile snake. She’s just laid 24 perfect eggs, no slugs. She shed 30 days ago. [center][/center]
>>
>>I really like these big black-headed oxblood morphs. This is what I think of as the “original” blood python, but we now know that there are many natural-occurring appearances.
>>
>>VPI, the biggest producer of beautiful bloods
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

... and not one that has been researched, at least not any research that has been published and certainly not a topic that anyone who did know would probably much want to talk about.

I've heard rumors that males were sterilized that date back about 30 years to the first albino corn snakes. More recently I heard talk that some people thought that the first albino ball pythons were somehow modified to not breed. Of course, many people were/are eager to endorse any sort of gossip or conspiracy theory as fact and ignore the fact that most keepers had little experience or success breeding anything.

So far as I know, such a dastardly act as sabotaging the fertility of male snakes has never been done. That's not to say it's impossible, it's just not something that most folk would do.

I don't know of anything that could be injected into a snake that would sterilize it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that such things exist, but I don't have a clue.

Why bother when it would be a fairly easy matter to give a snake a vasectomy? A good surgeon would leave very little visible evidence of the minor surgery necessary to accomplish it.

It's also possible to damage the hemipenes so that they cannot function. This wouldn't leave any visible evidence, either.

However, both of these methods to incapacitate a male snake's breeding ability would be very easy to discover and prove with exploratory surgery or in an autopsy. The crime wouldn't be any sort of perfect crime, it could be easily discovered, given you had a forensic veterinary pathologist who examined the snake. [just look in the yellow pages under "forensic."]

And thanks for such a lengthy and detailed response instead of simply shrugging it off like so many do. The possibility of this really troubles me and I would like to learn that it is just rumors and put this issue to rest once and for all. If you learn anything about this be it good or bad I would appreciate if you could email me about it. I am trying to compile as much info as I can so as to get to any truths if any exist. Thanks Dave

>>... and not one that has been researched, at least not any research that has been published and certainly not a topic that anyone who did know would probably much want to talk about.
>>
>>I've heard rumors that males were sterilized that date back about 30 years to the first albino corn snakes. More recently I heard talk that some people thought that the first albino ball pythons were somehow modified to not breed. Of course, many people were/are eager to endorse any sort of gossip or conspiracy theory as fact and ignore the fact that most keepers had little experience or success breeding anything.
>>
>>So far as I know, such a dastardly act as sabotaging the fertility of male snakes has never been done. That's not to say it's impossible, it's just not something that most folk would do.
>>
>>I don't know of anything that could be injected into a snake that would sterilize it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that such things exist, but I don't have a clue.
>>
>>Why bother when it would be a fairly easy matter to give a snake a vasectomy? A good surgeon would leave very little visible evidence of the minor surgery necessary to accomplish it.
>>
>>It's also possible to damage the hemipenes so that they cannot function. This wouldn't leave any visible evidence, either.
>>
>>However, both of these methods to incapacitate a male snake's breeding ability would be very easy to discover and prove with exploratory surgery or in an autopsy. The crime wouldn't be any sort of perfect crime, it could be easily discovered, given you had a forensic veterinary pathologist who examined the snake. [just look in the yellow pages under "forensic."]
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I have wondered about this. I haven't heard about the spermicide and doubt it would work over time. I have always thought radiation was the thing to worry about at a dose that would kill young gonads or injection of sperm to create an autoimmune response causing infertility. These would be hard to prove, especially the sperm injection. The sociologically interesting aspect of this is that if a big breeder did it it probably wouldn't surface for a long time as unsuccessfull breeders would figure it was their mistake. It would take a group of people willing to admit to their shared failure in an informal discussion to lead to really questioning if something intentionally had been done. By this time after the breeder had done several years of altering babies at the early phase of a valuable project healthy babies could be sold at the then diminshed price to further hide the original bad deed. It is a very interesting question and given the dollars available and preactices in some of the markets not totally out of the realm of belief.
Bill Kirby

>>I have wondered about this. I haven't heard about the spermicide and doubt it would work over time. I have always thought radiation was the thing to worry about at a dose that would kill young gonads or injection of sperm to create an autoimmune response causing infertility. These would be hard to prove, especially the sperm injection. The sociologically interesting aspect of this is that if a big breeder did it it probably wouldn't surface for a long time as unsuccessfull breeders would figure it was their mistake. It would take a group of people willing to admit to their shared failure in an informal discussion to lead to really questioning if something intentionally had been done. By this time after the breeder had done several years of altering babies at the early phase of a valuable project healthy babies could be sold at the then diminshed price to further hide the original bad deed. It is a very interesting question and given the dollars available and preactices in some of the markets not totally out of the realm of belief.
>>Bill Kirby
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

... creating an autoimmune response to sperm is a pretty novel idea. I know that is an issue in reversing vascectomies in human males, but is it something that has ever been tried in lab animals?

Sterilization by xray seems pretty risky. I would think the dose to kill gonadal tissue would be very close to the dose that is fatal to the lab animal. Plus sub-lethal doses can cause novel mutations, so that an irradiated animal that was still viable would very likely parent some very novel traits, including some very undesirable traits.

I try to not be naiive about the capabilities of greedy and avaricious people, but I am occasionally amazed at just what some people are capable of. In this case I think it would be

Still, I don't think that this occurs often, if ever. One reason is that some greedy SOB wouldn't consider this unless he had some very valuable babies that he didn't want bred once in other keeper's hands.

But who's going to stick a needle into a valuable baby and inject something with unknown consequences. What if the substance has unexpected effects? What if the needle pierces an organ or a blood vessel? I just don't see even the greediest lurking among us as willing to take the chance.

Over the years I've talked with many snake keepers and breeders, and it's my impression that most of them don't have anything but a vague idea about the anatomy of their snakes. Most have little knowledge of the medical treatment for their animals for common problems, much less any ability to attempt novel medical research into autoimmune response.

Any of the possibilities that have been mentioned would require experiment and practice. But who's out there with the scheming foresight to set up a colony of ball pythons or boas such sterilization experiments?

... creating an autoimmune response to sperm is a pretty novel idea. I know that is an issue in reversing vascectomies in human males, but is it something that has ever been tried in lab animals?

Sterilization by xray seems pretty risky. I would think the dose to kill gonadal tissue would be very close to the dose that is fatal to the lab animal. Plus sub-lethal doses can cause novel mutations, so that an irradiated animal that was still viable would very likely parent some very novel traits, including some very undesirable traits.

I try to not be naiive about the capabilities of greedy and avaricious people, but I am occasionally amazed at just what some people are capable of. In this case I think it would be

Still, I don't think that this occurs often, if ever. One reason is that some greedy SOB wouldn't consider this unless he had some very valuable babies that he didn't want bred once in other keeper's hands.

But who's going to stick a needle into a valuable baby and inject something with unknown consequences. What if the substance has unexpected effects? What if the needle pierces an organ or a blood vessel? I just don't see even the greediest lurking among us as willing to take the chance.

Over the years I've talked with many snake keepers and breeders, and it's my impression that most of them don't have anything but a vague idea about the anatomy of their snakes. Most have little knowledge of the medical treatment for their animals for common problems, much less any ability to attempt novel medical research into autoimmune response.

Any of the possibilities that have been mentioned would require experiment and practice. But who's out there with the scheming foresight to set up a colony of ball pythons or boas such sterilization experiments?

I was trying to edit that last post and I accidently hit the POST MESSAGE button, not once but twice. Sorry, I had my glasses off... Please forgive any grammatical errors and unfinished ideas that remain in the post. You probably get the idea without my going on.

But beyond what I believe is the unlikeliness of this occurring for practical reasons, there's another (I think) more important point to make. It's illustrated by the following observation.

Those of you that breed and sell snakes might have noticed that it is not until later in the summer when your customers have sold their snakes that they have the money to buy your snakes--right?

From our own point of view, as professional breeders it is critical to our business that our customers be able to breed the snakes that we sell to them. To that end we provide our customers the very highest quality animals and we attempt to provide all of the information and support to help them breed their animals.

The very long list of our customers that have bred the animals that they purchased from VPI is our greatest pride and a major factor with which we measure our success in this business. And I've got to say that most of the breeders that we know feel the same way about their own customers.

Maybe some of the breeders out there have customers with unlimited deep pockets, customers who spend big bucks and then accept failure by going out and buying more expensive snakes. I don't think so...

That's simply not our experience. It's our observation that most professional and hobbyist breeders decide to attempt another breeding project after success with their current project, and it is that success that allows them financially to even consider another outlay of capital.

We feel is it absolutely critical to our survival that our customers be able to breed their animals. The practice of selling sterilized animals would be the end of the herp business. There would be no surer way to drive away all the venture capital that gets invested in the big projects every year. No one would be left who could afford to buy the next new and exciting morph.

I absolutely agree with your points and think that having people produce with babies raised from your animals is the best way to get long term customers and good word of mouth recommendations that translate into more business. I seriously doubt anyone has done intentional genetic damage. If so, I think it would be in offspring from a one of a kind animal where early complete control of the market could occur.

Regarding the sperm injection I don't know of any animal studies but having seen many post vasectomy sperm granulomas and the marked immune response to them. I think it is likely that sperm is one of those normally sequestered anigents that elicits an autoimmune response when exposed to the immune system similar to MS-like conditions when brain antigens such as myelin basic protein get exposed to the immune system through trauma. Regarding radiation I have no idea how sensitive the gonads of reptiles would be to radiation. Babies do have very little fat so a fairly direct dose could be administered. I would think that this could lead to growth difficulties and likely intestinal fibrosis with associated problems but if the breeder was unethical enough to do this in the first place it is unlikely they would care or take reponsability as the radiation effects would take months to develop and the person who bought the snakes would be blamed for the problem.

Bill Kirby