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I know four breeders in Germany with adult albino boas.

The first got a litter of slugs about a month ago.

The second got a load of slugs a 4 premature born babys (which died the next day) about 1 week ago.

The third got a load of slugs the day before yesterday.

In all three cases both "parents" were albino boas.

Facing the fact, that colombian boas are normally the most fertile in the boa family (or should I be mistaken?) this matter is something to contemplate what has happened...

Several owners of albino boas already consider their animals as a bad investment.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Do you mean evidence that the albino gene somehow makes them weaker animals?

Perhaps their was something amis in the husbandry of the
breeders or temp fluxes not accounted for? Lots of people
breed normal boas and get litters of slugs and premies (it
seems to have happened a lot this year especially, perhaps the
flaw lies in the year 2003 and boas only breed well in even-
numbered years? lol okay now I am joking)

I don't doubt it could be possible some genetic traits may
cause animals to be weaker, but perhaps it is not the
specific (in this case albino) trait that is at fault, but
perhaps another inherantly bad trait that originated in the
original albino animal? And with all the line-breeding
that other trait is just as prevelant as the amelism (albino-ism)
itself? Just a thought...

Well, I have an adult albino female (possibly) gravid, she
is due at the end of next month, we'll see what she drops
and see if it falls in your 'evidence'.

I refuse to let slugs ruin my breeding season,so I just paint little squiggles and eyes on them and send them out as snakes after people have sent me the money.

Sold my house and bought a mobile home and am impossible to locate.I don't even use males to breed anymore..just use them to get the female to cycle and drop slugs.No feeding problems,slugs don't crap much.It is all how you look at it..there is always a silver lining behind each cloud...unless is it sunny out and then looking for the lining can cause severe retina damage.

.

n/p
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'Tis not the stongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' CharlesDarwin
Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo

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n/m

and use them for Easter Eggs Tim......You're a hoot !!!

Wow! What a break-through discovery. You call it evidence, of what? You based your evidence on four breeders in German, and three of them get slugs. What does the fourth one get? Also, we have no idea what's the cause of slugs on the other three: remove male from female so soon? Male was courting, but not copulating? Temperature (suck husbandry)? It has been said that breeder in Europe couldn't keep south Brazillian Amaralis. What evidence do you draw from this "theory"? Man, I bow to thee!!!

Meanwhile I got more news. There is another breeder. He had 3 gravid albino females. Two delivered slugs and one gave birth to a healthy litter.

The person I discussed the matter with is probably one of the most successful breeders of boas and pythons in Europe. He is in business for more than 20 years and he will surely not remove the male before things are settled.

Just look at the price of albino boas: It is constant for several years. Why? Because demand and supply are equal. It was predicted several years ago that the price for albinos would drop heavily because these animals would deluge the market.

Colombian females are the most fertile boas in the boa c. family. No one with a sound boa - mind would counter this statement. So where are the legions of albino babies now?

What I state is that in comparison to common boas the fertility of albino boas (albino X albino) is significant inferior. Do you counter this statement?

I don't know the reasons for this. But it's a fact.

Now some words to the South brazilian amaralis:
It's not the incompentence of the European boa keepers but the godawful Danish bloodline that we were plagued to keep. There had been no other bloodline of amaralis available in Europe except the Danish crap. Thank God these animals (Danish bloodline) are almost extinct now.

You guys over there are much more nearer to the boa - source. And look what most of you do with this blessing....
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Colombian females are the most fertile boas in the boa c. family. No one with a sound boa - mind would counter this statement.
I would counter your statement for one reason: what do you based on when you made that statement? Any survey? It MAY BE easier to breed Colombians then other boa species, but it does not mean Colombian females are the most fertile boas. I believe Gus from Rio Bravo Reptile once said that Hog Island can be bred every year. I don't think we can do that with Colombian.

What I state is that in comparison to common boas the fertility of albino boas (albino X albino) is significant inferior. Do you counter this statement?
Albinism itself is a recessive gene. Albino boas are already significant inferior in compare to common boas. They are fragile speciment, yet exotic and high demand. I believe most of us here aware of the situation, and that's why we outline breeding them as much as we can, and use het to het, or albino to het breeding in order to achieve albino offspring. Breeding albino x albino may yield more albino in the litter, but there may be some risk involved.

I don't know the reasons for this. But it's a fact.
I don't think you can said something is a fact until you have some thing to back it up. Excuse me, but may I say "I don't know the reason, but it seems like Herman doesn't know anything?"

Now some words to the South brazilian amaralis:
It's not the incompentence of the European boa keepers but the godawful Danish bloodline that we were plagued to keep. There had been no other bloodline of amaralis available in Europe except the Danish crap. Thank God these animals (Danish bloodline) are almost extinct now.
Don't you agree that we here in the U.S. do better with the Kahl's Albino bloodline better than European boa keepers do with the Danish Amarali bloodline???

Posted by: boavoyage at Wed Jun 25 15:00:36 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Colombian females are the most fertile boas in the boa c. family. No one with a sound boa - mind would counter this statement.
I would counter your statement for one reason: what do you based on when you made that statement? Any survey? It MAY BE easier to breed Colombians then other boa species, but it does not mean Colombian females are the most fertile boas. I believe Gus from Rio Bravo Reptile once said that Hog Island can be bred every year. I don't think we can do that with Colombian.

XXXXXXXXXX Hog isle easier to breed as common boas? That was a good one. I'll have to tell it to my fellow breeders.

What I state is that in comparison to common boas the fertility of albino boas (albino X albino) is significant inferior. Do you counter this statement?
Albinism itself is a recessive gene. Albino boas are already significant inferior in compare to common boas. They are fragile speciment, yet exotic and high demand. I believe most of us here aware of the situation, and that's why we outline breeding them as much as we can, and use het to het, or albino to het breeding in order to achieve albino offspring. Breeding albino x albino may yield more albino in the litter, but there may be some risk involved.

XXXXXXXXXX For once I agree with you.

I don't know the reasons for this. But it's a fact.
I don't think you can said something is a fact until you have some thing to back it up. Excuse me, but may I say "I don't know the reason, but it seems like Herman doesn't know anything?"

XXXXXXXXXX The people shall built there own opinion whether I am right as to the lack of breeding success in albino boas in comparison to common boas or not. But if you counter this I think you look rather silly.

Now some words to the South brazilian amaralis:
It's not the incompentence of the European boa keepers but the godawful Danish bloodline that we were plagued to keep. There had been no other bloodline of amaralis available in Europe except the Danish crap. Thank God these animals (Danish bloodline) are almost extinct now.
Don't you agree that we here in the U.S. do better with the Kahl's Albino bloodline better than European boa keepers do with the Danish Amarali bloodline???

XXXXXXXXXXX You are comparing apples to pear
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Great counterpoints on all accounts! I was going to bring up the Danish Amarili,(over here they call them "Bolivians",but,we won't get into that!*lol*)I think the practice of inbreeding beyond good,common sense,is at the root of some of these types of situations...this goes for ANY animal!the fact that the first albino Colombians hit the market at $10,000 each,certainly led people to inbreed them a bit too heavily,at first perhaps,but,I think they are actually much stronger than ever before! morph breeders may actually have the advantage,in that they are not as rigid in their breeding selection,and,this leads to much more vigorous animals as an end result. while I would agree that mutations can be considered "defects" geneticlly speaking,and,may have certain inherent weaknesses that can accompany them,that can happen in "pure locality lines" too,and,I think to the casual observer it might seem like "morph breeders" are inbreeding everything to excess,but,in fact,most of the serious morph enthusiasts have very complex outcrossing programs for most of their prized projects,if the truth be known. heck just look at the classifieds,and,you can plainly see that,here in the U.S. anyway,there certainly doesn't seem to be any big "albino drought" going on...maybe it's something in the water over there?(jk)

Hey Boavoyage, Are you in business? If so can I have the name of your company so I can be sure to NEVER do business with you! What a dumb-a$$. I believe he used the word "theory", which would imply it's not a definate fact. I'm glad when I wake up in the morning I don't have to wake up and be you, Whaa Whaa. For the rest of the members of this forum, I apoligize for the tone of this message. "Mr. Boavoyage"'s attitude really rubbed me the wrong way. Take care all (that includes you, boavoyage), Scott Sullivan

the age of the females.I have a feeling that it is human nature to possibly jump the gun a little anytime you have something that you deem as being a potential money maker.

A friend of mine got in on the Albino Burm craze a few years ago.His hatchlings were power fed and were 10 to 11 feet within that first year and bred..all slugs.They then didn't put enough body weight on to breed the next year,so were given the year off.Since then, he has averaged 50 eggs a year from her..every year,for the last 8 years or so.It didn't have anything to do with a weak gene,just wanting something to produce before it was ready.

Hello,,are we talking about albinos (snows)or just kahl (albinos),i haven't seen any problems with the breeding 2 albinos unless they are from the same litters,or were from albino to albino to begain with that were from albinos,,im thinking its fine breding albinos to albinos, like if there from a het to het breeding that were unrelated and pruduced a female albino,,bred to a strong het to het albino male,,just avoid the siblings to siblings albinos to albinos,,maybe im full of [bleep] but thats what im breding and have seen bred here with no problems,,now the snow boas is another thing i think they need some work to do on them before ill want any,,well thats all have can say about this as i have to go again,,take care everyone,,,,,,,,Greg

Forever Trust In What We Are,,And Nothing Else Matters

Did you ever think that maybe it was something other than the genetics of the parents? How do you know their wasn't something going on climate wise that could of affected the breedings? Do you know if they were ( or weren't ) cycled? Notice how close the dates are? Doesn't that clue you in on something? Instead of throwing your "theories" around, try to have proof to back it up. I know of several breeders who have slugged out one season, and had many litters the next. Your dealing with animals many more times sensitive to their environment than you are. Just because you can't feel those differences, doesn't mean they cant.

i know MANY breeders who have slugged out this season, both MORPH and locale people...

The fact that 3 NON-NAMED european breeders got slugs means NOTHING in the overall scheme of things herman.

Just more of your rants about "morphs".. give it a rest.. we honestly dont care anymore.

You give LOCALE keepers a bad name.. they see you spout off at the mouth and it makes them all look bad.

You dont see morph people ragging on locale keepers NON stop do you?.. i think not

You repeatedly say that Colombian boas are so easy to breed. I would like you to post pics of litters you have produced and statistics on the animals you bred and how many litters you have actually produced for the last 5 years or so; in other words , for example, in 98 I bred 4 pairs of Colombians and all had litters with no sluggs etc. I hope other breeders in Germany will be able to veryify if your answers are correct.

I got my first colombian boas back in 2001 from Dennis Sargent. I wanted to make sure to get true ones from a reliable breeder. Thus I refrained from buying previously.
Since I do not power-feed my animals they will have reached the sexual maturity not before 2004 or 2005.

But as a counter suggestion I would ask you to open your eyes and look at the legions of common boas in the U.S.

Make a fool out of you and dispute my statement that common boas are easy to breed.

And in my understanding common boas are colombian boas (maybe with a doubt regarding the purity).
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Very interesting. So you feel without ever breeding the animals that you can authoratatively state they are easy to breed. It is true that many colombian boas are produced every year but that is because many people are trying to breed and still the production numbers are relatively low. It would be interesting to see what the actual numbers are for the big breeders in terms of attempted litters and actual litters produced. I think you would be surprised how low the number actually is. A breeder can have 5 big litters with a total of 200 babies and that may seem like alot of available babies to you but those 5 litters may be out of 25 attempted breedings meaning that the ease of breeding the animals is low although a number of animals is produced. All you see is the number of animals produced; what you don't see is all of the attempted litters by many different breeders that have failed. I think most breeders would be very happy if half of their attempted litters produced every year but I think for many people the actual number is less.For those people that had the slugg albino litters what is happening in all of their others litters this year? I bet if they are breeding in fairly big numbers that they are getting sluggs in other litters also.

What I find interesting is the increased numbers of true red tails being produced. As people become less dependant on imports for their breeding stock the ability of people to produce peruvians, surinams and others is increasing as we have seen on the forum and in the classifieds over the past year; didn't you produce some surinams this year? I think within ten years the true red tail breeding will catch up to the colombian boa breeding in terms of the number of litters produced per number of attempted litters. I think alot of the failure in breding red tails to date has been due to poorly acclimated imports. When more captive bred animals form a good percentage of the breeding population you will see the breeding percentages get much better which will be good for everyone.

Bill Kirby