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A couple days ago I caught an E. milk that I brought home for pics. I'm glad I did because it gave me a chance to study the pattern. It didn't take a very good first pic, but last night it shed and the pics today look a little better. This shot shows an aberrant pattern, with very little lateral blotching, and many dorsal saddles reaching the ventrals...

The snakes in this population are interesting because they resemble somewhat a Western form, Lampropeltis triangulum multistriata, sometimes. Of course, there's lots of variation too, which also makes it interesting. This is the same snake. Notice all the broken blotches and spotting...

Yesterday I stopped at the same site again. It was 68*F, almost the same as the day before. I went to the old tire and looked under it. The milk in the blue was still there. Then I flipped a small board a couple feet away, and to my surprise found this little milksnake. It has a high number of narrow blotches on a whitish background...

It looks pretty interesting from a distance, almost like a prison convict. I also found a third milksnake under some tin while looking for massasaugas.

I don't usually keep milksnakes, but once in awhile I will keep a baby. I only have one other Eastern in my collection, one I collected two years ago. It's doing great, but growing very slowly. I might give this new baby a try too.

Later....TC

I'm not saying this is the case with these two milksnakes, but pattern variation can be as much pre-natal enverionmental related as it is genetics. There could be 4-5 days difference between these two and during that time temperature fluctuations could have affected one and not the other, or both.

Striping, tinting, etc (in BCI and ball pythons being the cases i've worked with) has been done by adjusting temperature and humidity during pregnancy and incubation. Not enough work has been done to really prove this out, but enough results have been seen to strongly believe it was the environmental changes that caused this. The same changes at different times have been thought to cause birth defects, etc.

In any event, keep up the observations, and keep letting us know.

Thanks for the input. I think you're right about the prenatal environment, as I've seen conditions affect the babies through the years too, and it's right to mention genetics, but also I would mention the physical envirnoment the parent snakes are living in.

In the years that I've been studying the E. milksnake in MI, I've noticed that there is a clinal variation in the number of body blotches, going from a high number in the northern part of the Lower Peninsula to a lower number in the southern part. So, these snakes I'm looking at in my county tend to have a high number of blotches. There's also a number of other environmental factors affecting the populations, especially the habitats and the local climates. I mention the climates because some of my snakes are from near L. Huron which has a large moderating affect, and some are from 30 miles inland where I live. The habitats vary from heavily forested to open fields and limestone formations, to swamps. Snakes that come from the more open habitats tend to have lighter ground colors and the most affect on the patterns. Snakes coming from heavily wooded areas or swamp tend to be quite dark most of the time. So, in other words, I'm thinking the habitat is affecting the color and pattern of some of these snakes over the years.

PS: The open, range-like, habitat is not typical, but mostly man-made.

TC

The climatic variations between north and south will exist pre-natal, and could affect both pre and post lay development, which could explain the differences there.

When thinking in terms of genetics, you must look at selecting factors. What you say about shading and pattern in woodland vs manmade habitat makes sense. The shadows in woodlands would select for a darker pattern with dark, shadow like saddles. The manmade habitat, be it concrete or open field, would get more sunlight and fewer saddles, so a lighter coloration would be selected for, with more of a light shadow/pebble look.

>>The climatic variations between north and south will exist pre-natal, and could affect both pre and post lay development, which could explain the differences there.
>>
>>When thinking in terms of genetics, you must look at selecting factors. What you say about shading and pattern in woodland vs manmade habitat makes sense. The shadows in woodlands would select for a darker pattern with dark, shadow like saddles. The manmade habitat, be it concrete or open field, would get more sunlight and fewer saddles, so a lighter coloration would be selected for, with more of a light shadow/pebble look.

Yes, exactly. Thanks for putting that into words for me. The situation also applies to another study subject of mine, the E. massasauga. I love seeing these guys in natural habitat and am trying to find ways to help protect remaining habitats here in n. MI. What I'm seeing in color variation is almost identical to what I'm seeing with the milks. The sites that produce the really light colored ones are the same for both species, and luckily for me, both species can be found at most of the same sites. Look at this dark catenatus compared to the last one...

Unfortunately, some of the dark and light can come from the same litters, so the habitat factor is more complicated than just which habitat the snakes are in. I think the open sites stimulate the selection for light.

Recently, I've been trying to locate any massasaugas, unsuccessfully, because they're hold up underground, but I have, surprisingly, been seeing lots of milks, which I've now switched to looking at instead

TC

>>Unfortunately, some of the dark and light can come from the same litters, so the habitat factor is more complicated than just which habitat the snakes are in. I think the open sites stimulate the selection for light

Keep in mind, it's not the habitat that stimulates certain genetics, it's the genetics ability to survive in the habitat. Though the dark and light offspring are produced in each environment, one or the other may be more susceptable to predation, colder temperatures, etc than the other, and therefore is selected against.

This thread is getting kind of long, If you're interested, woudl you like to take this to email? I can get you some good papers on natural selection, etc if you'd like.

Terry,

Nice little milks you have there. I found an adult in June that had a stripe running down the bottom 1/2 of its body. Unfortunately, the people I was with let it go before I took a picture. It was their first time herping and they did not understand the picture concept, or the make sure everyone is done with the snake concept...

Jason

Haha...sounds like those guys need some educating. I would have like to seen that striped one

TC