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Hope this helps.... (LONG)

Jeremy Stone Sep 01, 2004 11:53 PM

Hi April,

Gaylynn (my Manager) told me about your post, and she wanted me to respond. She has a Lot of knowlege with Necropsys and we have learned a TON this year. ESPECIALLY with albino boas.

There are a Couple of Senerios that could be the case, but the INBREEDING is not a huge issue, or the reason I would think many had some problems. Of course it is ALWAYS best to outcross as you can. However, the Boas don't have the same chromosomal make up that humans do, and they can't be effect the same from inbreeding. You can go a few generations with few defects, but again, it is always best to get some new bloodlines in there. I HIGHLY doubt this is your problem. I wouldn't hesitate ONE bit to breed those two together. IF you can find a new het mate, that would be better, but I bet the results would be no different other then the babies would have a little outcrossed blood.

The Most important thing to remember is that Albino Boas are a WEAK gene. The babies are very touchy ESPECIALLY when young. Often the mother will produce too much of a yolk for the babies to handel, and sometimes they are born with such big bellies, they don't survive. Othertimes the yolk is very big, and never digests and they get HARD bellies and die. This is VERY COMMON with albino boas. Every year I have bred them I have had 1 or 2 or more die as babies. This year I had more then 60 albinos, and boy did we learn a lot. Many were born with Big Bellies. I had one litter from a Sunglow to a DH sunglow, and I got 13 Sunglows. Of the 13 Sunglows, 10 of them Had HUGE bellies, and did Not make it. We now have a Great technique to get the yolk out of the body to save them. It isn't 100 percent, but it is better then the other result which is almost Certain Death. I also lost 2 of 4 Snows. SAME THING.

Since albinos are a weaker gene, they really need to be started right. Sometimes the odds are against them if they have big bellies. Also, if the Female drops the babies prematurely then the albinos don't have as great of shot. The BEST albino litters from my breedings are those where the female goes 105 and longer P.O.S. Also, the babies that come out with a very little lump in the belly. Those do very well. Remember this too. Once albinos get a good start and they get some good growth to them, they are VERY HARDY. The are almost just as hardy as any boa. However, the Babies are more prone to some problems.

Also, Sometimes you just get a litter out and many of the babies just don't do well or die. Often times this is due to some bad bowel, or a major organ that isn't functioning correctly. This DOES Happen once in awhile. It doesn't have anything to do with the parents. Sometimes you'll get a couple of animals in a litter that just don't do well. That is more common then you think.

My Last point. BABY boas can be VERY tricky ESPECIALLY albinos if you don't get them started right. Last year I learned this lesson. I had a very nice Albino litter from a striped female. Since they were from the stripe gene, I thought they were hardier and I didn't get them feeding Right away like I should have. They were hard to get on track after that. It is VERY important to remember when raising the babies, the FIRST 8 to 10 meals should be meals that won't make a lump. Also, do NOT feed in these first feedings more then every 5 days. I GO 7 days. After the 10 meals, and you can see they are growing and have a hardy and hefty feeding response, you can move up the size of meals and the amount. I still would be VERY careful. Maybe feed them after you see them deficate. That should be every 5 to 8 days. HERE IS MY POINT: there could be a possibility that you just didn't get them going like you can when you should have. (putting NO blame on you). Maybe you had one or two gurge and instead of a daily soak in a small container for an hour or two, you just let them go and fed them again. IF babies don't get a good start, it is pretty easy to say they won't be the best growers.

So, since there are many things it could be, I would just be careful with your next litters, (I'm not saying you aren't). I would make sure you get them set up and ready right away. If they don't shed on schedule (like MANY babies do) then you can offer them food 14 days after they are born. It is important to just get something in the stomach.

I would keep the albinos and maybe take them on a slower feeding schedule. I would go to mice that won't make a lump and feed them every 6 to 7 days. Do that for 5 to 8 weeks, and you'll see if they are meant to be or not. If so, they will get stronger in this period.

SOOOO, what do you do? I would try to breed those two again. It isn't going to hurt anything. IF that litter is bad, then you'll know that those two aren't meant to be. Don't Get discouraged. I know it is EASIER said then done. However, you would be suprised how often this is. Boas aren' that easy. I guess we really are lucky when we get those perfect litters with no problems. This year I had 6 litters with NO slugs. I thought I was in heaven. However, loosing 10 out of 13 possible dominant Sunglows put me right back in my place. LOL

April, I would breed them, and just go with your feelings. There is also some truth in the female being her first litter. Also, Albino females don't thermoregulate like normal boas. They don't know they are Alibno, so they go to sit on the heat and try to maintain 87 to 88 degrees. However, they don't conserve heat because they are albino. They are almost always thermoregulating at 85. WEIRD. I know it is only 2 degrees, but I know that is a HUGE difference over 4 months. It is in Ball pythons and that is only 60 days. I incubate the balls at 91 degrees, and they always hatch on day 48 to 50. So, keep things things in mind. I wish you the best of luck. Just don't hang your head. You'll do better in the future. Take Care, Jeremy

Replies (11)

BLAZEBOAS Sep 02, 2004 12:32 AM

You mentioned"We now have a Great technique to get the yolk out of the body to save them. It isn't 100 percent, but it is better then the other result " could you maybe get into detail about this teqnique? i for one am extreamly interested and would love to know more much apreciated
thanks
John Peraza

bahreptiles Sep 02, 2004 12:45 AM

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IF YOU HAVE IT SHOW IT. IF YOU OWN IT FLAUNT IT!!

Jeremy Stone Sep 02, 2004 01:56 PM

Man, I took so long to write that to April, when I hit the post message, it made me retype my username and password. When I did, I hit the Post message, and I guess it started a new thread. OOPS.

Anyway, to Answer your question, YES, we do have a very delicate way to remove the yolk. There are stages I'm talking about. 1. Is where the yolk is fresh and very large in the bellys. They just can't even move the lower 1/3 of their body. Most of the time, the albinos will die when the yolk is left. 2. Sometimes the yolk is big, but not large enought to kill them. HOWEVER, the yolk hardens over the period of a few days. This is almost CERTAIN death if it isn't removed. Also, if it isn't removed VERY carefully, it will kill the babies. We actaully filmed this procedure this year 3 different times, with the different scenerios. I am going to upload it to the new site. (It is going to be nice). I can also see if I can upload it and show it here. It is very cool. If you are interested, I can post it here in the next few days. (I know I'll get some guff for this, but Ohhwell)

Jeremy Stone

bahreptiles Sep 02, 2004 03:12 PM

new techniques are developed. If you have good or even decent results it may benifit all. As long as the person performing this has the common sence and experiance to try it. I would see no problem with sharing it. Just my thoughts on the subject.
James C.
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IF YOU HAVE IT SHOW IT. IF YOU OWN IT FLAUNT IT!!

rick s. Sep 02, 2004 12:46 AM

Hi Jeremy,

A few months back i had posted a question about the Arabesque morph and a female I got from my CBLT's first litter. In her litter, about half were CBLT's and this one I decided to keep. None of the other CBLT's had saddles as thin as these and had the more classic CBLT look. I'm not saying she is Arabesque, just has that look and was wondering if you could give your thoughts on what I can do to possibly pass this look on to future babies. Sadly, I lost the original CBLT this year after the dropped her litter. I had her necropsied, and discovered that the person who had her befoer I rescued her had seriously powere fed her, then stopped when they got her as big as they wanted her. She was filled with fat that was unbelievable. Her functioning lung was totally encased with fat, and some of her organs were extremely enlarged. The guy who necropsied her said her heart was as big as a 14 foot burm he had necropsied a few years ago. He was also amazed she was able to even produce one litter, let alone two. Please understand, I'm not trying to make this snake anything she isn't, but I really would love to reproduce this look. Also, although they look broken towrds the head, her saddles are completely connected head to almost vent. I'll try to get an overhead pic on one of my days off if it is sunny out.

Great answers to Aprils post, BTW. She is holding a few possible het babies for me from the other litter she produced this year and I can't wait to work with them down the road.

Thanks for looking,
Rick S.
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"D'oh!" Homer Simpson

rick s. Sep 02, 2004 12:50 AM

Just love this girl.
Image
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"D'oh!" Homer Simpson

Jeremy Stone Sep 02, 2004 04:59 PM

Hi Rick,

First, I can understand you aren’t saying that is a PURE genetic 10K snake. However, that is one BEAUTIFUL animal. I think the potential of that animal is good. I also do believe CBLT’s are genetic. I know a local friend who is getting into breeding boas more seriously who bred 2 CBLT’S together, and all the babies came out CBLT. I think that boa you have and CBLT’S are genetic not in the way a Motley is, or an Albino, but I do think it could be genetic in the same way a VERY good looking woman would pass those good looks on. I know that sounds very amateur, but it has been 7 years since my last college genetics class. Anyway, I think there are a lot of good traits that can be expressed in Boas that don’t have to be declared “GENETIC”. I know Jeff Ronne has shown that in many of his breedings. He has really selectively bred for certain traits better then anyone I know. I think you have a very special Animal there, and you should breed it and when you see some of the babies that EXPRESS what you are looking for, breed them together. I’m sure you can refine that expression of what you want to almost exactly what you are looking for with some good hard time. Good luck with your project, and if you EVER want to sell that animal, I’m sure you’d have a TON of buyers. Take Care, Jeremy

rick s. Sep 03, 2004 01:29 AM

Thanks for your compliments on her. I really like her a lot and hope to pass this look on to future generations. I plan to breed her to a CBLT I have down the road and see what happens. The more she grows, the better she looks and hopefully she'll turn out to be a good breeder. I've been growing her slowly to keep from running into the same problems I had with her mother.

Again, thanks for the compliments,
Rick S.
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"D'oh!" Homer Simpson

LindaH Sep 02, 2004 08:48 AM

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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

RedArgentine Sep 02, 2004 01:19 PM

n/p

B2 Berg Sep 02, 2004 06:13 PM

bother to take the time to post such an informative and caring piece.

I've never met Jeremy or for that matter dealt with him, but based on how it approached this subject he must have character and compassion.

Information like this will go a long ways to help us all to better understand our albino projects.

Thanks.

Barry Berg

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