Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for ZooMed
Click here to visit Classifieds

The Right Way to Ship Reptiles, Even if it's "Wrong"

mountainkings Sep 02, 2004 10:36 AM

Here is my second attempt to post this information. My first post, which basically pointed you to my web site and this article with all of the related photos, was removed by forum administrators because they felt like I was trying to generate traffic to my web site. Obviously that wasn’t my goal, I don’t know who would devise a method of shipping and then try and use it to actually sell product but maybe I’m just not smart enough to see the marketing potential of that ploy. I actually figured that the article was too long and the pictures were too important to include it all in a forum based post. So, here is the longest forum post in the history of Kingsnake.com, so long in fact, that I’m sure they’ll pull it again even though I’m a “paying customer,” with both a storefront and a classified account. For those of you who would rather see this post WITH all 12 detailed photos, copy and paste the following html link into the address section of your browser and things should make better sense:

http://www.mountainkings.com/Shipping.html

(or you can scroll down to the bottom and click on the link)

Don't you just hate the fact that none of the major shippers allow you to ship "live reptiles" legitimately? Based on some of the packages I've received over the years, it's no surprise to me why they have the policies they do. I often wondered if these breeders simply didn't care about the snakes they had bred and then sold (to me) or if they were just plain stupid. So, let's assume that you care as much as I do about the snakes you have bred and you want them to arrive alive. Well, this is your guide to making that happen. It has never failed me, even when the delivery date was missed by 24 hours. Here's how you do it: Start with 1 inch thick high density foam board insulation (which must be cut to fit your box). Home Depot has two types/brands that both have high R-values. Purchase a new flat cardboard box, I generally use a 10 by 10 by 10 square box. Because this is what I usually use, my cuts are almost always the same. I need 2 pieces for the top and bottom that are 10 inches by 10 inches. For the side walls, I cut four pieces that are 8 inches tall by 9 inches long.

The box lid gets additional cuts at each corner and along the interior edges to create fresh air vents for the snakes inside.
The lid (pictured above upside down) has small slots cut out of each corner and "V" shaped grooves along the inside to allow for at least a minimal amount of ambient air flow.

The next step involves the containers that both protect the snake and prevent it's escape. I purchase everything else (except for the electrical tape and the paper towels) listed in this article from Superior Enterprises online. These guys have it all and I highly recommend them--excellent customer service and a broad range of product to choose from. I start with small 8 or 16 oz. Fabrical containers (the air holes are already there) and the matching lids. Baby and juvenile Kingsnakes fit perfectly in containers of this size. I then cut the paper towels to fit and I try to avoid covering any air holes. I then cut a square piece of paper towel that is roughly 8 inches by 8 inches. I roll it tightly from one pointed corner to the other and wrap the middle with scotch tape to create "the snake hammock," an excellent idea I borrowed from another breeder.

The tips of this "hammock" sticks out on either side and the whole thing drops down into the container about an inch. Most snakes will readily wrap themselves around it.
Be careful not to pinch the snake in any way as the lid is going on, primarily because the lid recesses into the container about a 1/4 of an inch. Help the lid out where the "hammock" sticks out to prevent it from bending or hanging up as it will get tight here. Label the lid using removable tape--this way it can be cleaned/sanitized and used again. Next, use electrical tape to seal the lid in place. Theoretically, if the snake where strong enough and if it placed just the right amount of pressure in the right place it could pop the lid off (not likely, but...).

The key with the tape is that it should be getting stretched as it's applied. This stretching makes it "grab and hang on" to both the lid, the "hammock" tips and the container itself. But honestly, this isn't enough to truly secure the snakes. The final step is to place them (the containers with the snakes inside) in traditional snake bags. I don't use the tie that is built into the bag, I use a wire based "twist tie," because then, the bag could be cleaned and sanitized and reused again. Just make sure the twist tie is really tight.

Now there are two major items left to consider, padding inside the box and temperature. Most of the shipping we breeders do tends to occur from the months of March thru November. Things get a little slow in Winter (at least for me). Generally speaking, a heat pack or an ice pack is needed to maintain reasonable temperatures that won't stress or kill the animals you are shipping. As a rule, these temperature modifying devices need to be kept as far away from your snakes (in the same box) as possible. So I use shredded paper to both provide padding for the snakes (absorb shock and in flight turbulence) and to act as a buffer against the direct heat or cold of the included pack. So how do you gauge the amount of ice or the number of heat packs? Know your temperatures from start to finish. Use the internet to get the exact specific anticipated high and low temps and then run a test. If the temperature in Salt Lake City, UT, is 85 degrees (F) and I'm shipping to Huston, TX where the anticipated high for the next day will be 95 degrees, I can still ship. I take a completed box and place it in my 100 degree garage with a guess-timated amount of ice (usually a half filled quart size double bagged Ziplock freezer bags). After placing the ice in the bag, I force out as much of the air as possible. I wrap the original bag with a paper towel or two and then place that into another Ziplock bag. I remove as much air from the second Ziplock and then into the box it goes. Along with it I place a temperature probe (connected to a digital thermometer). This will record the high, low and average temperature from inside the closed box for the evening as it sits in my 100 degree garage. It is very important to make sure the probe doesn't contact the cold pack (or heat pack) directly. In fact, you want it to float in the "air space" inside the closed box all night long without touching the insulation if at all possible (think tape). This method lets you know how much more or less ice (heat packs) you need to get the job done. Pay close attention to your cold source. You don't want one that will leak. Double bagging is sometimes not enough. Using three bags is even better. Internal paper towels help absorb and/or retain and leakage from the ice melting down.

For me, the target temperature is 70 degrees (F), plus or minus 10--for the full duration. I recommend sealing your box at the last possible minute and dropping your box off with the shipper within 15 minutes of closing. Pick the shortest possible ship method you can (priority overnight vs. regular overnight). Don't label your box with anything like, "live animals." Don't cover any of the four top corner holes (which allow for minimal air flow) with any stickers or labels. Use the highest quality packaging tape you can find. Make sure you forward the tracking number to your customer, keep a copy for yourself and monitor the progress of your package. Define a shipping policy that clarifies that the customer MUST be present when the package arrives for delivery or they forfeit any "live arrival" guarantees. Either call the customer yourself to verify the condition of the snakes or request that the customer immediately email you with an arrival status of their order.
Looking at the finished product below, you can see a high quality box that can withstand a great deal of damage without the possibility of the snakes being hurt. If fact, I would be very surprised if a snake could successfully exit this box (based on in transit damage to the box) in a "living" condition. Feel free to stand on it, the foam inside is tough and can support even my 195 pounds (obviously without the snakes in the box). The empty box with the foam insulation all the way around weighs 1.25 pounds. Add the snakes (in this example three yearling Mex Mex Kingsnakes), your ice pack, the shredded paper padding and box stickers and the finished product still weighs less than 2.5 pounds. I can only imagine that if everyone who shipped a living reptile were to use this methodology for boxing their critters, the shippers might actually change their policies and allow us to legitimately use their services.

I have never had a customer complaint regarding my packaging. Using this type of packaging, I have never had a snake die or even get sick. I have even had the packages misrouted by the carrier, arriving to the final destination a day late, with the snakes inside still alive and well. So, do my customers feel this is worth the $35 that I charge? Resoundingly, the answer is yes. Do I loose money in the process? Yes, maybe $5-10, but I care about the animals I produce and would rather take the extra time/money to do the shipping well, rather than take the risk of killing a snake by using a sub-par shipping standard.

Shipping Done Right, Even if it's "Wrong"

Replies (15)

bluerosy Sep 06, 2004 05:26 PM

I would like to add one thing which applies to the small colubrids and small boids.

I agree with everything you said except the most important part. The deli cup. It has amazed me over the years as many "professional" herpertoculturists place a deli cup into a huge box and then the deli cup is only filled with a small paper towel . The poor snakes are still getting tumbled and jostled about with no limits to the stress this can cause.
If you think about it snakes in general are not clausterphobic as us humans are. Matter of fact a lot of the Mountain Kings you produce are very comfortable crammed into a tight crevice or hole under ground and are found this way in the field. Some herpers have even got specimens to eat only after they supply a sufficeint hide where the snake can jam itself into. Its quite okay for a snake to be crammed into a deli cup filled to the top with shavings. They tunnel about and are very happy. Ever notice how people find some snakes? under rocks, under boards, rotten logs ect.

Brings me to my point. should fill the deli cup to the top with shavings and then place the snake into the deli cups This is very comfortable to the snake and cuts down the stress of shipping TREMENDOUSLY (as I said above it the most important part)the small snakes tunnel in the shavings and can breath just fine. SHOULD someone drop or toss the box (its gonna happen)...no biggie...the snake is fully protected.

I have been shipping snakes for over 20 years with this method and I learned it from the late Lloyd Lemke who probably shipped more live snakes than anyone in his lifetime.

Otherwise, I agree with all of your shipping methods and I thank you for taking the time to create such an excellent post.

mountainkings Sep 06, 2004 06:16 PM

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. I have given the idea you mentioned some thought before but never tried it because I was concerned about the impact that the "Carefresh" substrate (the only substrate I use with snakes ever) might have on the airholes in the deli cup. I even loosely filled a cup once and put a snake in it for about an hour, but before long, the holes looked almost entirely blocked. Granted, the Carefresh mesh probably breathes better than most, but it still worried me. This is were the hammock comes into play. If you build one of these deli cups with one in it, place the snake inside, put the cup into the snake bag and then rotate the container a bit (simulating the shipping experience) and then open the bag up, the snake is almost always wrapped up tight around the hammock. Granted, it might be a little stressed (or even a lot stressed) but it's much better than just a folded or cut paper towel. Let me know what your thoughts are on the air flow or breathability of the deli cup filled with substrate. I know you mentioned that you've shipped this way for years, but what has your loss rate been (if any)? Thanks again for the feedback.
Shipping Done Right, Even if it's "Wrong"

bluerosy Sep 06, 2004 09:20 PM

Ya, I think the Carefresh would probably clog the deli cup holes. I use apsen or pine shavings. The snakes breath just fine with it. Also remember that a neonate kingsnake, milk, ratsnake is not going to need that much oxegen. As long as the box can breath a little (not making it airtight with tape), enough air is going to get to the snakes in the deli cup.

I hope you don't mind but I would like to use your site for future reference for forum posters who sometimes ask about how to ship a snake. I will keep your link and I hope others will also. Good stuff.

steveowc Dec 13, 2004 12:56 AM

Are you using a fairly large grade of shavings (bigger pieces)? I would think that would allow for greater air flow and easier burrowing, since larger shavings would be taking up less of the actual volume of the cup.

Traci Sep 07, 2004 08:39 AM

the time you took to put that page together. I've used the "hammock" idea the last two times I've shipped.

Thank you!
Traci

bluerosy Sep 07, 2004 02:30 PM

While the hammock is better than a paper towel thrown in, it still causes a lot of stress on the animal getting dropped and thrown. The snake just hangs on and is subected to all the external stimulus.
Why go that route? ...when filling a deli cup is easier and so much better for the snake? Beleive me there are no breathing problems using pine or aspen bedding.

Traci Sep 08, 2004 04:05 AM

I tear (or wad) up pieces of paper towel and fill the container pretty good with that, plus use the hammock. I like that they can wrap around the hammock if that makes them feel more secure.

Traci

bluerosy Sep 08, 2004 08:20 AM

...if that is done properly the snake has no room to "hang on"

Traci Sep 08, 2004 11:54 AM

that's the method YOU prefer, I prefer to fill up the space with paper towels.

Traci

bluerosy Sep 08, 2004 02:51 PM

np

Traci Sep 08, 2004 04:55 PM

are we responding to the same thread?? I thanked mountainkings for taking the time to create that page with the shipping info and mentioned that I tried the hammock idea. After you added your 2 cents to that, I replied that I don't only use the hammock, but also fill the space in the container with wadded or torn up paper towels. How are my posts misleading to anyone??

BTW, Fed Ex delivered my last package a day and a half LATE, and the snake was alive and well when the recipient received him. So I think my packaging method is just fine. You seem to be implying that anyone who doesn't do it YOUR way is wrong.

Traci

bluerosy Sep 08, 2004 08:21 PM

I have about 10 packages go out per week. I have been doing this for many years. Just because your snakes suvived the ordeal does not make you an expert.

Besides I am just trying to help others by my experience.

Read the title of the thread.

"The right way to package". "Even if its wrong"

LOL!

mountainkings Sep 08, 2004 08:53 PM

Okay, okay, everybody take a deep breath. Today I shipped two separate snakes to two different customers. I also combined my paper towel and hammock with a decent amount of Carefresh substrate. NOT wall to wall packed (in the deli cup), but enough to provide stability in shipment.

I am not convinced that a certain density of substrate is necessary. My reasoning for this is simple. No snake I have bred and shipped has ever died within 4 weeks of delivery. No snake I have bred and shipped has had a feeding response that was less than stellar. Those two indicators tell me that the snakes aren't arriving significantly stressed--even with just a cut paper towel and hammock. Keep in mind that the deli cup is in a snake bag, which is suspended and buffered on all sides by shredded paper. Undoubtedly, certain boxes have different "in transit" experiences (treatment), but I would argue that there is NOT "one and only one" correct way to package a deli cup.

Personally, I think the snakes I shipped today will arrive less stressed than previous shipments because they will be more secure--regardless of how well or how poorly the box(es) are treated by the shippers. But the substrate was not packed into the cup, it was "loosely placed" and I expect it will work quite well. I will know for a fact how well it worked tomorrow and then over the course of the next four days (I encourage my customers to NOT feed a recently shipped snake for two to four days, allowing it to acclimate to it's new environment and to recuperate from the stress and dehydration of having been shipped).

So, rather than argue, let's hope that average breeder who is getting ready to ship for the first time takes a long hard look at what we know works so as to avoid making a potentialy fatal shipping mistake (both for the snake and the potential pilot/crew of the plane it is being shipped on). As long as they follow the basic guidelines I proposed in my original post, they can tweak the details (such as the deli cup contents) to their personal liking all they want.

Keep the feeback coming though, none of us are perfect and all of us can stand to learn something, I know I did.

Thanks to all for your comments up to this point,

David

bluerosy Sep 08, 2004 09:54 PM

..for the snake.

My intentions are that people will be more aware of how to ship snakes stress free. It malkes more common sense that shipping a snake in a deli cup with minimal filling is more stressful to the snake than one filled to the rim with shavings.

I have received snakes in the deli cup with NO paper towels and NO shavings, nothing at all and I have also received snakes with minimal or half filled with some type of substrate or paper towels. The snakes still arrived alive and ate and seemed fine. But in truth the fact they suvived is not the best indicator on how to ship properly. There is no way to ask the snake what it went through or what it prefers. But based on the natural history colubrids and North american boids it seems they would prefer the tight ecloser a filled deli cup provides.

rtdunham Dec 18, 2004 02:54 PM

1) i crumble up two paper towels and put them in an 8 oz deli cup along with the snake. It fills the void pretty thoroughly, is dust-free, and i would think is less likely to interfere with airflow thru the airholes in the cup.

2) the hammock idea only works, it seems to me, if the cup stays level, and the idea that a 10 x 10 x 10 cube is going to remain "right side up" as it's tossed around by multiple handlers en route, who have no idea it contains a live animal, is unlikely at best.

3) I use 17 x 17 x 9 boxes. It seems logical they're much more likely to be maintained in their proper orientation than a cube, equal on all sides. Sure, we all put "this side up" stickers on the boxes (or should) but you know human nature....

still, i applaud the effort everyone's putting into showing their concern for the animals. which leads me to one last question: if the shipper's gonna put that much effort in, and place that priority on the animal's welfare, why not just ship air freight--which is

1) allowable
2) permits the package to be honestly marked with the contents
3) is handled--in Delta's case, at least--by people who move thousands of cartons of live animals each year, have special live animal holding rooms at almost all freight terminals, etc.
4) permits insuring of the animals
5) often permits same day arrival--a nonstop flight from Tampa to Boston, for example, has to be dropped off two hours before departure, the flight takes 2 hrs 43 mins, and the box is picked up usually in an hour or so--providing a packing-to-unpacking experience of around six hours. Sure, lots of flights have connections but using DASH still limits transit to a same-day activity in most instances (though DASH limits insurance to $750).

I can't see any arguments that the other methods are safer for the animal. So is it just a choice of shipper convenience at the risk of the animal's safety? (I know people ship lots of times without incident, but i've also gotten a box from one of the overnight couriers with an inside temp over 100 degrees upon arrival--couldn't blame the driver, he had no idea what he had in his truck. And in fairness and full disclosure, I'm still wrestling myself with temp regulation on my airline shipments--i'll start a separate thread on that with my questions.

peace
terry

Site Tools