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Incorrect use of genetic terminology when grouping morph types

bhmorrill Sep 03, 2004 07:24 PM

Here are some definitions from a genetics textbook*:

Codominant -- expression of heterozygous phenotype resulting in hybrid offspring that resemble both parents equally for a particular trait.

Incomplete dominance -- expression of heterozygous phenotype resulting in offspring whose phenotype is intermediate between those of the parents.

By these definitions morphs like the pastel in ball pythons are not really codominant morphs by correct definition. They would be incomplete dominant morphs. A het of a truely codominant morph would show the traits of both the parents simultaneously as shown in part A of the figure below using coat pattern in lentils as an example.

The pastel trait in ball pythons is actually an incomplete dominant trait like coloration in snapdragons (part B of figure below) where the traits of the het are somewhere between those of the homozygous parents. So with pastel ball pythons the homozygous parents would be a normal (NN), and the super pastel (PP). A regular pastel would be the het (PN). A regular pastel is intermediate between the super pastel and a normal ball python. It does not exhibit both traits (normal coloration and pastel coloration) of the homozygous parents like the het of a codominant trait would.

So, if you could breed an all white ball python to a normal colored ball python (that is homozygous for normal at the pied locus) and get piebalds (which we all know you can't, but just to explain the point further) then this would be an example of a codominant trait. This is because a pied would show patches of all white (trait of one homozygous parent) and patches of normal coloration (trait of the other homozygous parent). I hope this makes sense. Knowing this probably won't change the habits already in the community, but I thought atleast some of you out there would be interested to know of this misnomer.

Ben

*Hartwell et. al. 2004. Genetics: from Genes to Genomes. 2nd edition. McGraw-Hill. New York.

Replies (20)

lilroach56 Sep 03, 2004 07:38 PM

s
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

bhmorrill Sep 03, 2004 07:43 PM

I didn't know it had been mentioned before. I just learned all about it in genetics class today and just kept thinking of all the places I have seen this terminology misused in herpetoculture. Maybe if we keep bringing it up people will start using the correct terminology, but I guess only time will tell.

Ben

lilroach56 Sep 03, 2004 08:00 PM

I brought it up sometime last winter (when i learned about it in my Evrionmental Science class) and got 1 reply. We really should bring this up more often.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

jyohe Sep 03, 2004 08:42 PM

ball breeders *( any herp for that matter)...are just breeders.....not scientists.......not many in here have degrees in genetics,any upper sciences,or anything for that matter.....*( yes I know some of you have some sort of degree and some actualy in a science field).....anyways......

......probably never be accepted as it should be.....Thanx for trying though........nice to know........

..........snake breeders......one male...one female......a plastic box....(and try to get alot of money from babies).......

yep.......

Thanx again........any more words we do or do not use ?......

(don't remember all of bio classes.....)......

.......JY
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.....wow....you people....really.....you are exactly like I thought.........

............right?

......................................................

lilroach56 Sep 03, 2004 10:04 PM

The way JY type remind you of the way Stevie (African-American cripple from malcom in the middle) talks?
< talks >...< talks >...< talks >...< talks >...< talks >

....=pause for breath
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

jeff favelle Sep 03, 2004 10:32 PM

I was gonna mention that last year, but I totally forgot!

Too funny. I can picture that guy in the wheelchair just struggling to get the words out...........

But he's right. Its all good and well to be completely and literally correct, but its been brought up probably a half dozen times on this forum alone in the last year. It won't get changed. I mean heck, the term "cold-blooded" has been dropped from science for over 2 decades, but its still used in the herp industry. Just the way it is.

bachman Sep 03, 2004 11:00 PM

Listen, listen, listen when he talks, talks, talks, or dont you like an honest answer?
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Chad Bachman

survey33 Sep 04, 2004 08:50 AM

Never watched Malcolm, but I read his posts in the voice of William Shatner as Captain Kirk in the old Star Trek. Bugged me at first but at least he doesn't pull any punches and is not afraid of the "big breeders".

jyohe Sep 04, 2004 09:37 AM

and a little guy.....?

about 250 pounds is all..........

..............

........pull nothing....from noone.....thank you...you know it.....ask Chad.......my bro........

who was it that said it here..I forget?...and I will quote him/her alot too now.......who said this......(all it is)

""2 snakes and throw them in a plastic box""you are a breeder....

......something like this.......all it is........

proof....12 year old kids in here actually get hatchlings from balls..........and they have no clue how.....or what to do afterwards.........they just "happened" to get them........

I know...I kinow.......who cares...........?

........LMMFFAO.......................................................

Jeffrey Yohe.......
Happy Labor Day peoples.........feed well
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.....wow....you people....really.....you are exactly like I thought.........

............right?

......................................................

lilroach56 Sep 04, 2004 03:21 PM

s
-----
0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

My image Gallery

coldthumb Sep 04, 2004 05:08 PM

LOL !
Yeah... Captain Kirk thats it...and no i am not a trekkie.

Actually i agree with your whole post.
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1.1 Thayeri Kings
3.9 Ball Pythons
0.1 Viper Boa
----------------------------------------------------------
Looking for 0.2 Phelsuma madagascariensis madagascariensis

bachman Sep 04, 2004 06:29 PM

any of us, they just have more $$ to play with. Money makes a big breeder, not brains. ANYBODY CAN BREED A BALL PYTHON!!
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Chad Bachman

jyohe Sep 04, 2004 09:31 AM

nice......ha.......ha.......

it really isn't the way I type or talk...actually I type really fast...with 2 fingers...and the dots are ends of thoughts or even whole paragraphs....funny...you don't make fun of the others who do this...is it just me?........

(like I give 2 chits what people think....)??I think not......

.....
-----
.....wow....you people....really.....you are exactly like I thought.........

............right?

......................................................

lilroach56 Sep 04, 2004 03:20 PM

I know they are whole sentences or paragraphs. I just always pause and take a breath when i see ..... in peoples posts. Don't worry, not making fun of you i just thought i'd bring some comedy to this forum.
-----
0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
0.0.1 ball pythons (FELIX!!!!!)
2.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, Bear, and Tony)

My image Gallery

MarkS Sep 03, 2004 10:44 PM

This has been brought up a number of times over the years and yes, you are technically correct. The problem is that the term Co-dominant has been used (or rather misused) so much that it's become part of the common language in the ball python industry. And really, it isn't that big of a deal as long as people know what you're talking about.

Mark

>>Here are some definitions from a genetics textbook*:
>>
>>Codominant -- expression of heterozygous phenotype resulting in hybrid offspring that resemble both parents equally for a particular trait.
>>
>>Incomplete dominance -- expression of heterozygous phenotype resulting in offspring whose phenotype is intermediate between those of the parents.
>>
>>By these definitions morphs like the pastel in ball pythons are not really codominant morphs by correct definition. They would be incomplete dominant morphs. A het of a truely codominant morph would show the traits of both the parents simultaneously as shown in part A of the figure below using coat pattern in lentils as an example.
>>
>>The pastel trait in ball pythons is actually an incomplete dominant trait like coloration in snapdragons (part B of figure below) where the traits of the het are somewhere between those of the homozygous parents. So with pastel ball pythons the homozygous parents would be a normal (NN), and the super pastel (PP). A regular pastel would be the het (PN). A regular pastel is intermediate between the super pastel and a normal ball python. It does not exhibit both traits (normal coloration and pastel coloration) of the homozygous parents like the het of a codominant trait would.
>>
>>
>>
>>So, if you could breed an all white ball python to a normal colored ball python (that is homozygous for normal at the pied locus) and get piebalds (which we all know you can't, but just to explain the point further) then this would be an example of a codominant trait. This is because a pied would show patches of all white (trait of one homozygous parent) and patches of normal coloration (trait of the other homozygous parent). I hope this makes sense. Knowing this probably won't change the habits already in the community, but I thought atleast some of you out there would be interested to know of this misnomer.
>>
>>Ben
>>
>>*Hartwell et. al. 2004. Genetics: from Genes to Genomes. 2nd edition. McGraw-Hill. New York.

bhmorrill Sep 04, 2004 01:53 AM

I understand that the term is widely used and probably won't change, that is why I said my reason for explaining the misnomer was in case some of you out there were interested in knowing. That is who this post was meant for. If that didn't come accross before I'm sorry. That was how I meant for it to come accross.

Ben

LKirkland Sep 04, 2004 03:13 AM

Ben,

Thank you for the information you posted. I am new to snake keeping and have a tremendous amount to learn. I am fascinated by the the genetic aspect of Ball Python breeding and certainly want to learn the correct terminology and definitions. Thanks again.

Louis Kirkland

dumje Sep 04, 2004 07:56 AM

I do have a degree in... Science Education...focused on Biology. I have known about that but Co-dominat sounds better...the pastel looks like a blending of the 2 genes anyways SO I think it could be either or.

I hate seeing people advertising their Co-dominat traits as Dominant for Ivory Ball Pythons...that is an example I have seen alot lately. It is not a dominat trait...we call it Codominat...so lets leave it at that. We know the Ivory is the super form...any thoughts on that?
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Michael Enriquez

Paul Hollander Sep 07, 2004 05:58 PM

Just wanted to pass on a web site that addresses the question of codominant vs. incomplete dominant. The author is a retired professor of genetics.

Paul Hollander
Dominance, Codominance, and Epistasis

joeysgreen Sep 21, 2004 03:27 AM

It's always good to get bits of info from students excited about their classes. How 'bout posting a relatively unbiased study about the side effects of all this breeding for phenotypes hidden by evolution? Pro's, Con's? Despite colour, are these animals biologically superior or inferior? That answer may be opinionated, but with some facts on the topic many of us could make a better personal opinion.

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