Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If I get two hatchling kingsnakes that are the same size and sex (like two sisters) can I keep them together in the same viv, as long as their well fed and remain similar in size? Is it the smae with milksnakes? And can I keep them together forever, or is there a point where they HAVE to be seperated no matter what?I want to know before I get them! Thanks

If I get two hatchling kingsnakes that are the same size and sex (like two sisters) can I keep them together in the same viv, as long as their well fed and remain similar in size?

Actually, they are more likely to try and eat each other as hatchlings than as adults. If you try this, one will almost undoubtedly eat the other. Maybe not the first day or week or month, but eventually, there will be a problem.

Is it the smae with milksnakes?

Generally, yes. Most of the milksnakes are snake eaters as well.

If you don't have to room/money for two cages, you don't have the room/money for two snakes.
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Chris Harrison

One major piece of info missing here is...what kind of king snake?? If we are talking about getula then the previous post is on the right track. If we are talking about lets say Mountain Kings such as L. pyro pyro then communal living is exceptable with seperation for feeding. Many I know also allow their hondos to live in a communal setting with only one male in each group. Hope this helps and have fun with the new kings!

Matt Woodhall

Chihuahua Mountain King's? Would adults be able to share enclosure space except for feeding? This is the first time I've ever read that there were any exceptions for housing Kingsnakes together.

>>Many I know also allow their hondos to live in a communal setting with only one male in each group.

Matt, the first anerythristic honduran milksnake in captivity was raised to adulthood and then killed by her cagemates following a feeding--constriction marks evident on the body when she was found--just prior to what would have been her first breeding season.

I don't think keeping them together means they WILL be eaten or killed. But i do think it means they COULD be.

terry

I do understand that but it seems to be the exception not the rule that they WOULD kill each other...anything is possible. I just hate to get a mystique going that if you put two milks or kings together it is certain doom. I have made several trips to Bob Applegates place and have observed his housing practices. All of his pyros and hondos are housed together in breeding groups year round and are only seperated for feeding. I beleive he has had one instance of attack and that was one problem female. My thoughts are only the other side of the coin to give a differant perspective. Take Care

Matt

Thats fascinating that he houses his Pyros together. I would think it would be a snake on borrowed time guess not.
I know some snakes like Ca kings are snake eaters but never thought some in the family wouldnt do the same.
Lia

Although I keep mostly Cal Kings, I also have pyros. I never keep my Cal Kings together except for short periods when breeding. When I breed my pyros I do keep them together a lot ( a week at a time) and never had a problem with the pyros. When I bred milksnakes (New Mexico, Pueblans) and other kings (thayeri) I treated them like cal kings - always separate except for short breeding times. I also never had a problem with knobs being together when I bred them either.

Since I keep approx: 100 adults, it is easier for me to just keep one snake per cage. There are always exceptions to the rule. I know of 2 cases where rosy boas killed each other, thatyeri can kill each other for sure as well as cal kings.

Kerby...

Kerby...

But not chain kings with florida kings. I've never had a problem with adult kings trying to eat each other. I have had problems with Sinaloans, though...

i can't understand why people want to keep snakes together when there's a good chance one will get hurt or eaten. also you have the hassel of seperating them at feeding time.what is a GOOD reason to put them together ???

Some would argue that a communal living setting allows for a more natural setting for the animals. It does, however require housing that is somewhat differant then normal sweater boxes. Check out Bob Applegates site and browse thru his pics and you will see his custom enclosures that are multi-level and provide enough chambers to seperate all the animals during feeding with just some plastic caps. When feeding is done the caps ae removed and the snakes allowed to explore the entire enclosure again. Bob uses this method all year but likes it during breeding season because there is always a male present with the multiple females. When a female is ready to breed the male is there to mate with her. Let me reiterate that the communal set-up consists of one male with multiple females. I admit that this is in no way for everyone as the enclosures require special set-up and space.

I wasnt aware Mountain Kings lived communaly or in harems ? I always thought of Kings or colubrids with the exception of Garters to be loners ? Im not that knowledgeable enough in Mountain Kings to say that's not true so hence Im asking.

Keith

>>Some would argue that a communal living setting allows for a more natural setting for the animals. It does, however require housing that is somewhat differant then normal sweater boxes. Check out Bob Applegates site and browse thru his pics and you will see his custom enclosures that are multi-level and provide enough chambers to seperate all the animals during feeding with just some plastic caps. When feeding is done the caps ae removed and the snakes allowed to explore the entire enclosure again. Bob uses this method all year but likes it during breeding season because there is always a male present with the multiple females. When a female is ready to breed the male is there to mate with her. Let me reiterate that the communal set-up consists of one male with multiple females. I admit that this is in no way for everyone as the enclosures require special set-up and space.
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Keith....when I talked to Bob about that he seems to believe that the animals spend communal time in the wild especially during brumation. In fact pyros have been known to copulate during brumation or during the warm-up coming out of brumation well B4 their post brumation shed. Upon visiting his facility when a hide was lifted there was always a bundle of snakes sharing the same space. This was also true with his hondos and sinaloans. Interesting stuff and I think we always need to be able to think outside the box.

Matt

>>But not chain kings with florida kings. I've never had a problem with adult kings trying to eat each other. I have had problems with Sinaloans, though...

This whole discussion reminds me of people who drive drunk and HAVEN'T had an accident yet, and people who drive drunk and have, or who have seen someone else's accident as a result of driving drunk: Will it happen every time? Heck no, lots of people have followed the curb home, and--combined with luck, theirs and the luck of others around them--made it home; others have been less lucky. And that's the way it'll continue.

My first pair of chain kings demonstrated behavior appropriate to this discussion: It was the midst of breeding season, and i had to be away for a day and a half. I'd had them together before, for shorter periods, and saw no aggressive behavior, so i figured 36 hours with a focus on reproduction would be ok.

I got home to find the female (which was about 4" longer than the male) gorged. She was curved in a half circle, lying on her side. It was several days before the meal digested enough for her to even move.

The discussion shouldn't be focused on "will it happen every time" or "MIGHT i get away with it". It should be on whether there's a reasonable element of risk to the animals WE are responsible for the welfare of.

terry
ps: having said all that, I've talked to people whose judgement and word i trust and respect, who report keeping their pyros together, sometimes for months at a time, even brumating them together, without incident. Maybe the element of risk is less with them, and based on what i've learned, i do leave mine together for up to 4 or 5 days sometimes. I never leave my hondos together more than overnight, and usually only an hour or so. TD

OK, so I guess I'll try the Bob Applegate method and create a large setup with interconnected cages so the snakes can be seperated. And I AM actually planning on getting a pair (both females) of Tarahumara(Chihuaha?) Mountain Kings, so maybe it'll work out ok. Also I might get a pair of Nelson's Milks, does anyone know if they can possibly be kept together or are they as aggressive snake-eaters as getulas? Thanks

Yeah, if you have the space and money it is a really cool set-up. I can't remember if Bob keeps his nelsoni together but feel free to email him and ask him, he is always very helpful.

Matt

But I personally dont house any snakes together, ever. For me, I really enjoy my animals and it is too big a risk to have something happen to any of them due to my own fault. Some people have housed snakes together successfully with no problems what so ever. I personally dont want to risk it, I have invested too much time and money in my animals, so to me it makes more sense to house them seperately and be better off safe than maybe sorry in the long run.

Dont take this as any kind of flame, as it is not, just my personal opinion, so take it for what it is worth. Good Luck.

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1.0 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes (MO locale)
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Yellow rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.1 California king snake (Coastal phase)
1.0 Prairie king snake (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade (KY locale)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Whei I was a teenager I had a peninsula king that would not eat snakes, no matter how hungry he got. I tried all different kinds of "leftovers" from field expeditions.....ringnecks, dekays, garters, small water snakes, ribbons, etc. One weekend I doubled him up with a very nice cornsnake, some 8 in longer than him so we could bring a cage on a trip to the glades. I came home to a very fat king kingsnake!

>>Whei I was a teenager I had a peninsula king that would not eat snakes, no matter how hungry he got. I tried all different kinds of "leftovers" from field expeditions.....ringnecks, dekays, garters, small water snakes, ribbons, etc. One weekend I doubled him up with a very nice cornsnake, some 8 in longer than him so we could bring a cage on a trip to the glades. I came home to a very fat king kingsnake!
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1.0 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes (MO locale)
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Yellow rat snake (Dwight Good stock)
1.1 California king snake (Coastal phase)
1.0 Prairie king snake (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade (KY locale)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian