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so the caramel albino is an axanthic albino right? if this is the case...why wouldnt you (from a het to het breeding) get axanthics, caramel albinos, albinos and normals? im just thinking that this is a carrier for both genes.

im thinking of purchasing a pir of hets, and just wanted some words from the wise thanks in advance for a reponse! philip wheeles

xanthic not azanthic.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

ahhhh. so when you breed them, you only get albinos, and hets for caramel. i have some more research to do it looks like. phil w.

No, still wrong, sorry. And whatever you do, don't go looking to RicK for genetics advice, he barely even knows how to spell axanthic.

Mark

>>ahhhh. so when you breed them, you only get albinos, and hets for caramel. i have some more research to do it looks like. phil w.

sorry got that right........
axanthic

Mr. Genetics!!!!!!aka RicK lol
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

No, you're pretty much wrong on all points. Carmel albinos are a simple recessive trait where some of the normal pigments of the snake are missing causing it to look like a different color then a normal ball python, it is not related to either the axanthic or the albino mutations. Axanthic is a term used to describe a snake that is missing most of it's yellow coloring causing it to look more black and white then a normal ball, whereas albino (actually amelanistic) is a term given to an animal that is missing it's melanine which produces the black coloring. Some of your confusion probably comes from the Snakekeepers term for their line of carmel which they call 'Xanthic albinos' (not Axanthic)

In breeding together two het for carmel albino ball pythons approximatly 1/4 of the offspring would be actual carmel albinos, the rest would be normal looking snakes that are possible carriers of the carmel gene.

While it's not a 'designer' morph I would still encourage you to work with it if you have the opportunity. In my opinion it is one of the prettiest and most underrated of the ball python morphs out there.

Mark

>>so the caramel albino is an axanthic albino right? if this is the case...why wouldnt you (from a het to het breeding) get axanthics, caramel albinos, albinos and normals? im just thinking that this is a carrier for both genes.
>>
>>im thinking of purchasing a pir of hets, and just wanted some words from the wise thanks in advance for a reponse! philip wheeles

what i ment by this statement ----->ahhhh. so when you breed them, you only get albinos, and hets for caramel. i have some more research to do it looks like. phil w.

actually re reading it i see where it makes no sense. what i was trying to get across is what you said. the gist being if you breed 2 hets together 25% should be albinos, and the rest would be 66% poss. hets. the whole axanthic, and Xanthic thing IS in fact what threw me off. thanks for the info! phil w.

There are a few other ways these morphs are referred as...

"Caramel albino" is also "Xanthic" and "T albino"

"Albino"standard)is referred to as "T- albino"

Tyrosinase positive or negative.
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1.1 Thayeri Kings
3.9 Ball Pythons
0.1 Viper Boa
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Looking for 0.2 Phelsuma madagascariensis madagascariensis

Hopefully I can avoid confusing the mater any further given the already confusing situation (i.e. Xanthic vs. Axanthic which are opposites and Caramel Albino vs. Regular Albino nomenclature).

Remember that caramel albino/caramel/xanthic/T plus albino (you can't do the plus symbol on this forum when last I checked) are all names for a single morph and that T-/albino/regular albino are names for a different appearing morph.

Now for what may add to the confusion:

"not related to either the axanthic or the albino mutations"

However, does anyone really know that caramel and (regular) albino aren't related? Has anyone bred the two homozygous and unrelated animals together and produced the expected normal looking double hets? I'm not saying that for sure they are related but I just got this goofy idea that they could be alleles (different mutations of the same gene). It would explain where albino and albino (only) hets are showing up in a line of caramels. I don't have the animals to do a real test but I do have 6 eggs from 66% chance het caramel to 50% chance het albino a few weeks out. I'm expecting normals (especially given the possible het state of BOTH parents) but if I get a caramel looking double het I'll not be all that surprised as that is what my theory predicts. If this works out you might be able to cross homozygous caramel males to homozygous albino girls and produce large numbers of (hopefully) kink free caramel phenotype, double het genotype babies. Breeding those together would produce 1/4 albinos so it wouldn't breed 100% true but if it gets rid of the kink problem (a big if) in caramels it might be a good thing. I have to think that the kinking is the main reason this morph is underrated and underrepresented this long after first coming on the scene.

Thanks Randy,i didnt notice that the "plus" didnt make it in my last post.

Didnt Ralph have several clutches involving both Tplus and T- genes.Did anything pan out for him ? It may not work very well at all.
Who was it that had T- show up in their Caramel project ?

As far as kinking goes,i hope that it is linked to something that can be crossed out.
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1.1 Thayeri Kings
3.9 Ball Pythons
0.1 Viper Boa
----------------------------------------------------------
Looking for 0.2 Phelsuma madagascariensis madagascariensis

OK Randy, I'll agree that I could have been more clear, when I said

>>"not related to either the axanthic or the albino mutations"

Because you are right that no one knows for sure if they are alleles of each other or not or somehow related in some way. However the instance I think you are refering too could just as easily be explained by a mix up in record keeping.

However refering to the Carmel albinos as T positive I think is just as confusing. As far as I know, there have been no tests or studies to prove that the carmels get their unique coloring from the fact that unlike the 'normal' albinos, they can still produce tyrosinase. This morph has been called T plus or T pos or Tyrosinase positive albino based purely on looks and conjecture. There are other morphs that appear to me to be some kind of amelanistic mutation, like VPI's burgandy ball or Renaissance Reptiles Paragon ball or even the lavender albino balls that Ralph or Mike Wilbanks are working with. None of these to me look like either the normal albinos or the Carmel albinos. Perhaps they are also alleles of the same mutation? or perhaps they get their unique coloring from some other mechanism entirely?

As with all things, only time will tell. But it's always fun to speculate.

Mark

Have the common albinos been tested for tyrosinase? A year or two ago I asked Dave Barker that question, and he said that no boid had been so tested. I'd be delighted to learn that the situation has been changed. But if not, it is premature to call the common albino ball python tyrosinase negative.

I agree that "T positive" is a very confusing term. I'd just as soon see it dropped from the language.

FWIW, there is a mutant in the lab mouse called "pinkeyed dilute". It is very light in color with pink eyes, which seems very similar to caramel albino. It is not an allele of albino in the lab mouse. IMHO, caramel albino is analogous to pinkeyed dilute and is not an allele of albino. But that's just an opinion. The only way to be sure they are not alleles is to do a breeding test.

Paul Hollander

Thanks Paul, I didn't realize that the normal albinos were also not known as to weather or not they actually produce tyrosinase. I guess it's yet another instance where something is assumed to be fact based purely on looks and speculation. Seems to be a lot of that going around in this hobby/industry Thanks for setting me straight.

Mark

>>Have the common albinos been tested for tyrosinase? A year or two ago I asked Dave Barker that question, and he said that no boid had been so tested. I'd be delighted to learn that the situation has been changed. But if not, it is premature to call the common albino ball python tyrosinase negative.
>>
>>I agree that "T positive" is a very confusing term. I'd just as soon see it dropped from the language.
>>
>>FWIW, there is a mutant in the lab mouse called "pinkeyed dilute". It is very light in color with pink eyes, which seems very similar to caramel albino. It is not an allele of albino in the lab mouse. IMHO, caramel albino is analogous to pinkeyed dilute and is not an allele of albino. But that's just an opinion. The only way to be sure they are not alleles is to do a breeding test.
>>
>>Paul Hollander

I was just trying to list all the names I had heard either mutation called by to help sort out the nomenclature (correct or not). People tend to confuse any morph with the word “albino” in its name.

I've been trying to get someone to breed a caramel albino to a regular albino for years with no luck (that I know of) so am doing my best to test it with my possible hets.

Someone mentioned RDR in this thread but I think they are thinking of his crosses between the regular albino and lavender albino lines which have yet to produce a good egg even though this year he used a het rather than a homozygous on one side (probably just bad luck and not proof yet of an intrinsic incompatibility).

I'm probably wrong and it's an expensive experiment but maybe it's about time we will get the answer. If it helps with the kinking problem it would sure be nice to see more caramel phenotype animals around. It will require some interesting changes to the market though if my theory is right.

Randy,your right.I had that wrong.It was the Lavender's.

Paul,
"FWIW, there is a mutant in the lab mouse called "pinkeyed dilute". It is very light in color with pink eyes, which seems very similar to caramel albino. It is not an allele of albino in the lab mouse."

I have one of those freaks,but its a rat.
She was born here from an albino female and a hairless het/albino male. LOL
(The rat barn is full of oddities actually)
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1.1 Thayeri Kings
3.9 Ball Pythons
0.1 Viper Boa
----------------------------------------------------------
Looking for 0.2 Phelsuma madagascariensis madagascariensis