Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While surfing the web for Indigo stories I came across the Charlotte County Florida Natural Resources web site (/www.charlottecountyfl.com/EnvironmentalServices/NaturalResources/indigo.htm) it says that Indigos have "recently been reintroduced to Alabama & Mississippi" anybody know of this? If true where did the parent stock come from, what age were these animals, a lot more questions but I'll wait until I hear if it really happened .

Reintroductions have been tried a couple of times with not a lot of success. I know Dan Speake released some many years ago in the Mobile County vicinity. I'm not sure of exact locations, but I do remember that it did not succeed in establishing a reproducing population. I'm not sure of the origins of the bloodline. I haven't heard of any reintroduction efforts in Mississippi, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been done.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yes...Dan Speake of Auburn U. released MANY snakes in GA, AL and MS.

This was back in the early 80's however, and the populations in AL and MS are considered by most to extirpated.

Dean,
Why didn't they make it? What was learned from this? Is there anything that could be done better on a subsequent attempt if it ever happens?
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Sorry Drini, you know I just hate to give up.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

I think that one thing that happened (at least with Dan Speake's releases) was that the sheer size of the suitable habitat required to sustain a population of couperi was grossly underestimated.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I have some of Speake's papers somewhere...I should send them to Doug to post on indigossnakes.com.

Basically, no disrespect to Dr. Speake, but I think they beleived that you could start a population by simply releasing a bunch of snakes. Since then, they have found thatit is simply not
that easy.

Unfort.,none of the animals were radiotagged, so it ws tough to keep track of them.

My thoughts:

1- as oldherper suggested, I think they underestimated the sheer size of habitat required.

2- even if suitable habitat was available...when an animal is GONE, something takes it's place. Numbers of other predators were probably higher, taking the place of the absent indigo. Throwing a bunch of new snakes into the mix just doesn't work. It upsets the ecological balance, and the animals that were there, and have evolved (sorry, there's the "e" word again) for thousands of years to be in that tiny little microhabitat (be it a region of S. MS, S. AL, etc) simply are better equipped by instict to make it in that region. They are hardwired for surviving in that specific micrphabitat, whuch probably has many differences from where the indigos that were released evolved in. Although they may seem very subtle to us, they may be huge to a snake. Is this making any sense? B/c it's just a theory.

It is always better to protect exisiting populations than to create new ones, or re-establish what has been erraticated.

I have lived in the panhandle of Florida for 16 years and have not seen one Indigo. I check large areas of longleaf pine habitat and run the dirt roads. I talked to one wildlife officer who admitted the only one he saw on Eglin AFB was the one he accidently ran over. There are so many dirt roads AND paved road through all these suitable areas and the locals love to drive through them at a very fast rate. Besides, have you ever seen a skid mark near a DOR snake?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. In fact, I was having thoughts along those lines. It would seem that an Indigo is not just another Indigo. That even though they may look alike on the outside, mother nature has provided them with some locality specific instincts for survival in that specific locality only. And those instincts don't apply anywhere else. Which is hard to fathum, given these animals higher cognative capacity. So a difference in terrain, or water abundancey, or prey, or hideing spots makes a big differance. At least in this species. Maybe we just overlooked something.

It's ironic that a few Indonesian tree snakes that crawled out onto the runway, and stowed away on an airplane's landing gear to Guam have survived and flourished on that island to the point of extreeme nuisance. They have decimated the island bird population. They have established so well that the Guamanians can't get rid of them! And yet we cannot seem to re-introduce a species to it's native habitat. There must be a key somewhere.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Its not like Indigos are very specific about what they eat...THAT alone should give them an ENORMOUS competitive advantage. I would guess it has to be related to its dependence on the golpher tortoise population, abundance of roads through it habitat combined with its tendency to ROAM combined with its lack of speed compared to black racers and coachwhips, lack of profundity compared to eastern hogs as well as collection pressures. The infestation of fire ant population in its Florida panhandle habitat may also be a factor (some field biologists attribute this to the apparant decline of southern hogs). I am no expert at all....I drove 2 hours this morning through sandy roads in prime habitat with longleaf pine, intersected with crystal clear spring creeks, and plenty of golpher apple plants and all I saw was 2 black racers basking on the sandy roads. This is the same area I have found 2 southern pines in 3 weeks so I know it supports large roaming snakes.

Don't know if he let them loose anywhere else but Dan Speake released 40 Indigo snakes on St Vincent Island Florida near Apalachicola between 1980 & 82 mostly hatchlings he got from a Florida zoo & some confiscated snakes from Fish & Game. They were released at gopher tortoise burrows at one end of the Island. No reliable observations of Indigos have been reported since 1994. Indigos were not know historically from St Vincent. One idea is that feral hogs may have killed them.

Releasing indigo snakes (or any other wild animal) into old habitat usually doesn't work unless you remove the factors that resulted in their original dissappearance.

With indigos, we think we have a few ideas (collection, fire ants, roads, etc), but these are usually guesses at best. Until we know the contributing factors to the original demise, releasing snakes is just like trying to put out a wildfire with a thimble full of water.
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Chris Harrison

There is sufficient evidence to support the negligible results trans-location and re-introduction of species into an area from which they have been extirpated.
Such practices have proven ineffective, and even detrimental, to a variety of species, especially Crotalus and Testudinidae.
There have been a couple of studies in the past to this regard. One such study was conducted Kenneth C. Dodd Jr. and Richard A. Seigel, and is perhaps the most comprehensive work regarding such practices, as wildlife management tools, to date.
Their findings indicate the use of translocation and reintroduction as being ineffective tools for establishing populations of a species extirpated from its range.

Here is an avenue for further information regarding such:

http://mercury.bio.uaf.edu/~brad_griffith/89_956.html

Jeff

WHY ??

Theories?

The habitat was GOOD that they were relased in in MS, I saw it first hand

>>WHY ??
>>
>>Theories?

I believe at least part of the cause would have to be the "anxiety" the snakes feel at being abandoned in a new area. Imagine if you were taken with a cloth pillowcase over your head to a new neighborhood hundreds of thousands of miles from your home and dropped off there without any resources or the ability to communicate. You would become anxious and probably spend a significant amount of time to reorient yourself. And you have the cognitive skills to overcome the sense of anxiety, snakes don't.

By anxiety, I mean elevated levels of corticotropic-type stress hormones (we know very little about snake endocrinology). While these hormone levels are elevated, the snake is not going to "settle down". We have all seen this in high strung WC snakes, where they won't eat and wander their cages "aimlessly".

Imagine a wild indigo doing this same thing (possibly in an effort to find familiar territory?). It would spend more time on the surface wandering, less time eating, and its metabolic rate would probably be higher due to the elevated hormone levels. This means it would be burning more energy, not feeding, and exposing itself to more danger than usual due to its wanderings (predation, roads, etc).

To be honest, it would be more surprising if relocation worked. I always worry about this when I hear of someone saving an animal from the bulldozer. Are you really saving it or are you moving to slowly die in an unfamiliar environment.
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Chris Harrison

You know, I've wondered about this. What if you located suitable habitat, then built an enclosure and kept the Indigos in this enclosure outdoors in the middle of the habitat until they became acclimated to it and settled in while you were feeding them by releasing live prey items and caring for them normally as if they were in your collection at home (as much as possible), then just open the enclosure and let them leave and spread out when they feel like it? I'm talking about a large pen-type enclosure with natural habitat features inside...maybe something 100 ft x 100 ft with plenty of hiding opportunities, etc. I know a guy around here that keeps hundreds of Copperheads in just such an enclosure and they have sort of a micro-habitat in there. He has been keeping them that way for 20 years , and they are thriving in there and reproduce by the hundreds every year.

It seems like that way you would overcome the security issues up front, they would be constantly immersed in the natural scents of the habitat and then when the pen was opened and they were "released" they would just sort of naturally spread out (eventually) into their own little niches.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I most definately concurr with O.H. Re- introduction efforts have been successful with other species. If it is done properly, I believe it can work. It just sounds to me like this other guy got into a bit of a hurry. I can't remember which speceis, but I know I read about it somewhere. It has been done. And they used the type of method described by O.H. I think if it where done this way, it could be successful. However, if it is tried, it should be done on a much smaller scale as last time. Just a few animals. And enough people to keep a close eye on them, and the local preditor population, at least until the animals are determined to be established. And then continued observation to follow up. Perhaps even trcking devices should be used. Then if they multiply in number, it might be o.k. to go ahead with additional release sites. If this is ever tried, I would consider it an honor to help. I would be happy to go live in the woods and work on this!
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

As I mentioned earlier, a facility to house such specimens for introduction into the wild would only be part of a successful introduction program.
One must still address the need and establishment of a genetic protocol, acclimation protocol, micro-habitat requirements and correct any environmental factors which may have contributed to the demise of the species, before releasing such into the wild.
To merely take a group of specimens, and raise them outdoors for release into the wild, without following through on any of the other areas mentioned, would be foolish and detrimental to the specimens involved.
Other then the ongoing projects currently in place to re-introduce Cyclura iguanids, I would like to know what species of reptile everyone keeps referring to, which has successfully been re-introduced into areas they have been extirpated from. The only species I can think of is Alligator mississipensis, and a few other Crocodilian Spp. worldwide, and the underlying cause of demise was identified (over hunting) and corrected (hunting legislation inacted), before such projects were initiated.
I still believe any time, effort, and funding would be better served strengthening the current populations and habitat first.
Of course, this is strictly my opinion.

Jeff

Oh yes, absolutely. I agree whole heartedly with everything you have said. I know it will be a complex and difficult task. But I truly believe it can be done.

As for the other species,... I am not really sure. I know I read it some place, but I cannot recall the particulars. It's that darned sometimerz disease. Sometimes I fergits. Seems like it was some kind of boa, but I'm not sure. And I'm pretty sure they used a similar technique, in that they were raised in out door enclosures at or near the release site.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

unless its simply a one-time devastating event such as a widespread virus I am afraid you are correct. We certainly do have a feral hog problem and I never thought about that connection. Maybe the florida panther at one time kept in check other predators such as foxes, racoons, and coyotes that probably eat Indigo eggs. I know Gopher turtles where eaten extensively in this area esp starting during the depression and WWII. also the extensive use of gas during rattlesnake round-ups that still exist down here. Its amazing the comeback of black bears in this area and I imagine they have a roam area at least as large as the Indigos. i still think the basking behavior on roads may be a key factor and there are so many old logging roads in their habitat that is utilized by all terrain vehicles, 4 wheel drives. teenage boys in their 1st pick-up etc etc.

The study Paul Moler did with radio telemetry on a population of indigo snakes in Central florida showed that these animals have a home range. This range was crossed by the ranges of many other indigos allowing for interaction of these animals for procreative and social (?) behavior. Many times, indigos were found within the same hole or tree stump, and one particularly large oak was frequented by several snakes during multiple periods.
Scientist know that snakes lay down scent trails which they use to mark their territories and also to plot trails to the best food sources, hibernaculums ( or estivation areas), breeding localities, and even predation avoidance pathways. It could be that with newly populated areas that this long term frame work is not available for the new inhabitants, and they must set down new scent trails based on chance and other unprooven methods which leads to the populations demise.
Deer populations use these same methods and will continue to use a trail even after the forest has been completely removed by logging!
Indigos ,being a top level predator with low fecundity, will be slow to populate an area, unlike more fecund and adaptable animals like Boiga who's home range systematics may not require a saftey net of trails to secure it's survival.

Great post. Perhaps we could use a more hands on approach to re-introductory efforts.,.....And what the heck is fecund? It aint in my dikshunairy.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

.

If you are in area that should have indigoss, look near water sources. I live in S.Florida and canal banks containing holes from rats and irrigation pipes are used as burrows. Orange groves have been phenominal providing there are rat burrows in the banks. The abscense of the burrows will be due to certain pesticides in use which kill off Indigo populations. I had a some great areas where they killed off entire populations due to pesticide use. Just to give you an idea, a Palm Beach County Sheriff Deputy was in a sugar cain field recovering a stolen vehicle. He was "accidentally" crop dusted. For 5 years he suffered from symptoms that doctors could not explain other than knowing it was caused by the pesticide. He died over 5 years later from cancer. There is even a number to call should you swim in a S.Florida canal to determine the last herbicide spray and date it was implemented. After rambling on, my point is that roads, pesticide use and habitat destruction...all of which are determined by politics and $$. Last example, a biotech company named Scripps will be built in Palm Beach County. The county forced Meca Farms(orange groves) to sell the land for dirt cheap to the county and the county in turn GAVE the land to Scripps. Now roads have to be made and they decided to run a 4 lane hwy through a wildlife management area(Corbett-68,000 acres) and Hungryland Slough(20,000 acres), both of which were deemed ecological preserves or bio-sensitive ecosystems containing Wood Storks, Eagles,INDIGOS etc...Thanks Gov. Bush!! He forced I mean supported that project. Much like that whole Everglades restoration project, which was all about kick backs etc for $$. The Everglades has had nothing restored! Enough venting for now! Indigoss will be like the Florida Panther but worse...most people hate snakes.