Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm on a roll this morning. Anyway. I've heard lots of people say copperheads. I've also heard people disagree with that saying their strike is way too fast for a beginer. So my question to the expierenced keepers is; If you had to start over from square one, what would be your choice as your first hot?

I sitll stand that the best first hots are tree vipers like eyelashes and Trimeresurus. This is because they are small and not super fast on the hook although quick, the are in branches so you do not need to move them to change substrate (I use carpet and just replace it so the entire thing just lifts up with tongs), the LD-50 may be high but the yield is low but I think level of toxin is of little importance...you dont want to take a hit from anything. I think this because you rarely have to move them and they are easier to handle than big heavy snake that may be slow but still need room to work with and are lot wicked quick ones like elapids and other tree snakes like boomslangs. They are also a little challenge to keep conditions and that is alright because anyone getting a first hot in not new to snakes and is up for a challenge as far as the snake goes...you just dont want a challenge to work with as far as bite risks for your first hot. I am sure many people will not agree but this is my opinion.

mess you up more than alot of people think, and AV is not readily available in the US. I would think a Copperhead would be better, as AV is easier to obtain in US hospitals if needed. Yes copperheads can mess you up and disfigure you also, but the proper AV is available "almost" anywhere in US hospitals.
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Chad Bachman

many people really do take trimeresurus and bothriechis bites pretty lightly, especially considering both can and have caused fatal bites.
I would definitely stay far away from t. purpureomaculatus if one was to go the trimeresurus route. They can get pretty large as far as tree vipers go, have a bad bite, and are very hot tempered. I would say copperhead would be your best bet. Since there is absolutely no reason you should be anywhere near their strike-range, and given the mild temperatment of most, the speed of the strike shouldn't be a problem unless you have your hand a foot in front of it's face. They are fast, but their strike-range isn't anywhere near as far as any of the tree vipers, which is something to keep in mind. I also like sidewinders and pygmy's, but nothing prepares you better for a first hot than a mentor.
good luck and use common sense, it goes farther than you think.

You definitely have to explain what you mean. If I do decide to get involved in keeping hots I damn sure don't want anything going anywhere without me being prepared for it let alone farther than I thought it would. Do you mean like tattoos? It becomes addictive? Or do you mean there's alot more aspects of keeping hots that I'm not concidering?

If you are asking what he meant by "going farther" he meant that copperheads USUALLY will only strike maybe half thier body length, at most from the ground (but don't count on this), whereas some tree vipers have a reputation for lunging from a branch and just barely holding on with the end of thier tail so that they are striking nearly thier whole body length, and doing it FAST. I've had a bush viper I work with do this a few times, and it sure wakes you up...

As far as strike speed goes, you should be considering that totally irrelevant, for now at least. ASSUME that any snake can strike faster than you can react, because even the slowest can get you if something distracts you for a second. With practice you will train yourself to ignore distractions whenever you have a cage open, but for now, assume it will happen and factor that into your handling, which means keeping more distance than you think you need.

When I said common sense goes farther than you think, I meant use it, many people don't. It's the best way to keep you out of trouble, don't go on impulse. Responsibility and common sense are two important factors to keeping hots, it's not rocket science, but lack of the two can get you in a heap of trouble.
Ask as many questions as you can and don't feel like there are any bad questions. You're going about it the right way.
Just please, buy captive-bred and leave the wild populations in the wild, and please, let the snakes keep their glands.
Good luck.
-tom

***Nothing prepares you better for a first hot than a mentor.***

Bullseye.

I dont think you would be able to react fast enough to any snake strike, so I would say the strike too fast argument is fallacious. I would start off with a native venomous snake, like the copperhead or a small rattlesnake like the sidewinder, because the AV is available if you need it. This way, when you learn the hard way, you will probably live to think twice about obtaining more potent species.

I think my point was missed. I said tree vipers would be a better choice because they are easier to work with without needed to handle them with even a hook. It is much easier to change substrate when the snake is on a branch you have set off the ground. I see the point where AV would be harder to come by but my advice was more toward something where you can lower the risk of being near the snake. If i can avoid even hooking a snake I am much happier and if the snake is off the ground I can just take the substrate and water dish out with tongs. My opinion and I knew it would be shot down because of high risk LD-50's. I would have said sidewinder but I keep all tropical snakes so I think about them more. And yes, there are many Tree pit vipers that get bigger but white lipped and popes are very small.

Im not saying that those tree vipers arent a good idea, as I would use those to start off with exotics due to lower risk. Before getting one, I would still recommend obtaining your own AV, which isnt always easy. Should a bite occur, it can still be bad and the keeper may not end up being around to become more experience.

What about Rear-Fanged?

Rear fangs are good too, but are they as cunning and quick as some of the the other hots? I agree with the other post saying a mentor is the best way. I think you need some learning with real hots first. A lot of people dont treat rear fangs as venomous and handle them freely (often with gardening gloves) so I think that would hinder the learning process for hots.

shooting down your post. We are just giving different opinions/options.

My first 3 hots were 2 large WC WDB's Crotalus atrox & a CBB adult B&W spitting cobra Naja siamensis, but this was 14 years ago, so everybody can save their breath telling me that is not a good idea.
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Chad Bachman

"I think my point was missed. I said tree vipers would be a better choice because they are easier to work with without needed to handle them with even a hook. It is much easier to change substrate when the snake is on a branch you have set off the ground".

I'm having a hard time understanding this response. Are you saying that just because the snake is on a branch that it makes it safe to just reach your hands into the enclosure? If so, that's a bite waiting to happen. There should be absolutely no reason why anyone should be reaching into an enclosure UNLESS they have a trap box or divider. The fact that the snake is on a branch means it's more dnagerous simple because it's holding on with a few inches of it's prehensile tail, which means that it can lunge every bit of it's body length but the prehensile tail at you. The closest I've ever came to a bite was from an eyelash viper that was maybe 20 inches in length that was on a branch, it lunged STRAIGHT out about 16 or 18 inches.
I learned a good lesson that day.

My point was if the snake is off the ground you do not need to move it with a hook or tongs or trap box or whatever...you can simply carefully open the cage, reach in with TONGS, and remove the substrate if you use a one piece substarte like myself (I use carpet...the expensive equivilant to newspaper). You can also remove water dishes in this manner. If branches are set into the sides like many arborial cages are, there is nothing touching the ground but the water dish and the substrate and they are easy to remove with tongs this way. I know some people put water and other substrates with tropical arborials but I keep all tropical snakes in one small room (walk in closet actually that works perfect as a small snake room...guy version, without clothes) so I have no problems with humidity and have all one piece sheds epecially if I mist from time to time while they are in shed to add to the humidifier I have in the room. I hope this makes more sense. I do not think it is alright to work that close to a hot without many precautions and the reason I think small arborial hots are beter to work with is because they do not need to be moved out of the cage to clean it...the "crap" falls to the floor and water dish which you simply remove with tongs and replace...very simple.

If you had a one piece substrate like newspaper, then yes I do think that would work. I personally like the natural settings, so that wouldn't work for me.

I'm sure I'll be back with more questions but it was a big help. Thanks again.

As A first venomous i would think it would be wise to keep somthing that lives in you area so that if you are bit you hospital will have AV.but as a first exotic venomous i would think a golden eyelash viper.I dunno if this would help for i have never kept venomous but i wiould think this would be the wisest thing to do.
Zach

Well, sort of. Although I do see the point of the small aboreal vipers I also agree Av is a big factor. Getting your own can be an expensive pain in the butt. So I'm thinking something Crofab would work for. Again, I don't plan on taking a hit, but God forbid, I'd want something available. That's assuming I couldn't get my own. Thanks for the all the tips.