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Comments on building plans and help finding cages

Purduecg Sep 10, 2004 09:17 AM

Hello everyone, I am trying to find new cages for my Uros (as I mentioned in the post below). I keep them in my living room and they enjoy being in the middle of everything, so it is important that the cages look very nice. I have had trouble finding cages to purchase that are reasonably priced, and big enough. I basically need a 4ft wide by 2ft tall by 2 ft deep cage, and another one that is only 18in tall. I designed a set-up, but am having trouble finding someone to make it within my price range, and am not even sure if the design is solid. Some of my questions are:

How much ventilation is needed? How much ambient heat will rise into the top cage? Do the area where the lights will reside need some sort of insulation? How do I incorporate temperature controls into the design?

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it. I do not have any experience with furniture design or creation, and would love it if one of you has an even better solution I could just purchase. I would like to house both the lizards for under $1000.

Thanks again for your help!

Elizabeth
Image
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1.0 Uro Archimedes
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

Replies (14)

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 10:56 AM

>>I basically need a 4ft wide by 2ft tall by 2 ft deep cage, and another one that is only 18in tall.

A few comments on your dimensions.

First, consider making the cages just a bit longer. I'd say either 49.5" or 50.5". That will make it much easier to fit 4' flourescent light fixtures into the cages. I realize that mercury vapor bulbs are so good enough nowadays that these fixtures are not necessarily needed but you never know when you might want or need to use one.

The above two length options are easy to achieve at no extra cost. For a 49.5" long cage you simply have a 4' piece of plywood fit between the two, 3/4" sides giving a total length of 49.5".

For the 50.5" length you would use a sheet of melamine (cross-cut) between the 3/4" plywood sides. From your design it appears that all of the horizontal pieces would be hidden so using melamine would not be a problem.

Melamine is 49" wide compared to plywood at 48".

Regarding the height of the second cage, is the 18" the height of the area where the lizards will be contained or does it include the hidden light area?

I ask because generally 14" is the minimum height I recommend for the viewing area of a cage that is designed to be nice. When the height of the viewing area of a cage is half the "depth" of a cage it just is not as fancy of an appearance. I'll post a picture of my Bearded Dragon cage in another post. It has a 14" tall viewing area.

Lastly, try to get the total height to under 80" with the casters. You really want this thing to fit under door openings. Trust me on this.

>>How much ventilation is needed?

With the heat required by uromastyx, probably not very much. Any residual moisture will be dried out by the heating elements.

Still, I like to provide a lot of air flow for most any species of reptile.

>>How much ambient heat will rise into the top cage? Do the area where the lights will reside need some sort of insulation?

Some heat will rise into the cage above. You could try what I did with my Bearded Cage. Attach a piece of foil-covered, styrene insulation to the floor of the cage. The cover the styrene with a scrap piece of vinyl floor or some other type of plastic. The foil will help block radiant heat, the styrene will slow down the rising of conductive/convective heat.

>>How do I incorporate temperature controls into the design?

I assume you'll be using mercury vapor bulbs for the cages. I tend to recommend the externally ballasted variety which don't get nearly as hot as self-ballasted. And they last longer.

So you'll need another heat source, likely a ceramic heat emitter. Simply run that through a dimmer and/or thermostat. If both CHE's were run through dimmers and then through a thermostat you could get away with one thermostat for both cages. Without a dimmer the above cage will likely get hotter, especially since it's so short.

>>I would like to house both the lizards for under $1000.

Some ways to make it cheaper:

1) Use cross-cut melamine for all of the flat, horizontal pieces. The main disadvantage of this is that you won't be able to use cross cuts for the front of the cage, meaning your grain will run sideways instead of up and down. But I would use birch plywood anyways with the mahogany stain so the grain will barely be visible anyways.

2) Use sliding doors instead of hinged doors, glass instead of acrylic. Sliding doors also tend to give the cage a more open look which I prefer. The same look can be achieved with a frameless door but those tend to be more expensive.

3) Have the access to the lights be from the back. If you really want it from the front, use some stained wood attached with cabinet magnets instead of a hinged, tinted glass door.

Another advantage of having the access from the back is that solid pieces of plywood can stretch across the front of the cage, providing a lot more stability around the doors - the area that needs it most.

4) Same thing with the drawer area. Either have no door at all and have nice baskets full of supplies or simply attach a "face" to the opening with magnets.

I'd strongly consider losing the drawer area if possible. It will make the total height shorter and also allow for large pieces of solid wood or plywood to "frame" the front of the unit. This will make the door openings much more rigid and square.

5) Don't buy any fancy ventilation ports. Simply have the ventilation out of the back of the cage.

6) This won't save that much money, but use regular instead of locking casters. With the kick plate you won't be able to access the locking mechanisms anyways.

I'll upload some pictures in individual posts.
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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 11:06 AM

Here's my GF's Bearded Dragon cage. It is birch plywood with a mahogany stain. The cage looks much better in person than this picture would suggest. The brighter red area at one end of the cage is basically the color as it appears in person.

At any rate, the upper and lower "lips" of the cage are 6.75" tall (a six inch strip of plywood in each case attached to the 3/4" thick top and bottom respectively).

Once the glass track is added the opening is just over 13". If it were any shorter I think it would take away from the looks of the cage.

The lights are hidden in a false-ceiling area that is accessed from the back. More on that later.

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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 11:11 AM

Here's a nicer cage I built. Fortunately the picture is of better quality as well.

In this case the upper and lower lips of the cage are 8" or 9", it's at a friends house so I'm not sure.

The leaf-patterned moulding that runs along the front of the cage between the corner rossettes is something I highly recommend. But in your case I think you'd need crown moulding at the top of the cage since it's so tall.

It overlaps the glass doors slightly which is a great bonus. I hides small imperfections and allows the glass track to be cut short, thereby allow for easier removal of debris from the track.

Again, lights are hidden in a false ceiling area.

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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 11:14 AM

Finally, here's the false ceiling.

What you see in this picture is a frame built from 1" stock that stretches from the bottom of the upper lip to the top of the back panel of the cage.

Screen is attached to the frame with staples and those small metal corner brackets.

There is an 8" by 48" opening all along the back of the cage where lights and heating elements are accessed.

You don't necessarily need such an elaborate false celing for Uromastyx. I used them since just about any species can be put in the cage and be safe from burns and escapes.

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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 11:21 AM

Sorry, in the first post with the large oak cage I was not very clear about the crown moulding.

I would definately use crown moulding for the top front and sides of the cage.

But I would use a piece of moulding similar to what my oak cage uses running down the front of the cage. Then the bottom of your cage would basically be identical the my cage.
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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

purduecg Sep 10, 2004 12:12 PM

What fantastic advice, and things I definitely had not thought of. I was very careful to make sure that it would fit under normal ceiling heights (mine are currently 12ft, but I am renting), but I completely forgot about DOORS. That definitely would have sucked in the end.

You had asked if the 18in cage height included the area hiding the lights, and it does not. The Uro for that cage is currently in one that is 18in high and so that is what all his "furniture" will fit under!

With the light access from the back, does rolling the cages around not bother the animals very much? I am assuming that is how you would access the light recesses, just roll the thing out and reach in the back. Is that then enough ventilation? (having a screened top and an opening at the back for light access).

I am currently using full spectrum florescent lighting, a ceramic heat emitter, and heat lights, though I have been meaning to look into the mercury vapor lights. Not sure what I will be doing about that yet.

So, as far as building supplies, birch plywood for all of the viewable surfaces, and melamine for the horizontal ones?

I am redoing my diagram, and will repost it to see if I have captured all of your excellent ideas. You don't happen to live within a state of Indiana and want to build a cage do you? lol.

Thanks again!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Uro Archimedes
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 01:37 PM

>>With the light access from the back, does rolling the cages around not bother the animals very much?

That's a good question. The Bearded Dragon cage does not matter as my animals spends a lot of time running around the living room anyways.

The oak cage is angled into a corner at my friends house providing plenty of room to walk behind.

But lights and heating elements should not need to be changed very often. And I assume you already have a protocol for placing your animals elsewhere during cleaning, etc., so I'd simply follow that for the (hopefully) rare time you need to change a light bulb.

>>Is that then enough ventilation? (having a screened top and an opening at the back for light access).

It's an extraordinary amount of ventilation.

I also like it because it does block some heat as well. In fact this weekend I plan to place some of the bubble/foil insulation inside of the false-ceiling of my BD cage to reflect some of the radiant heat back into the cage for winter.

>>I am currently using full spectrum florescent lighting, a ceramic heat emitter, and heat lights, though I have been meaning to look into the mercury vapor lights. Not sure what I will be doing about that yet.

I highly recommend mercury vapor bulbs for Uromastyx. Besides the great amount of UVA and UVC, they also provide a much greater intensity of visible light - very important, IMO.

If you already have light fixtures under 48" I'd go ahead and use them for this cage and not worry about using the melamine to achieve a slightly greater length. Instead just go with 49.5" total width. That will save you a bit of cutting.

If your fixtures are indeed 48", you can still fit them into the 49.5" cage, you'll just need to angle them slightly. Only problem with this is the angle takes away room for mercury vapors and ceramic heat emitters.

Understand that with mercury vapor bulbs, 48" flourescent fixtures really are not necessary. But if you have them and would like to continue using them, you can plan now on making them fit into your cage comfortably.

>>So, as far as building supplies, birch plywood for all of the viewable surfaces, and melamine for the horizontal ones?

See above. Plywood will still work if you don't mind installing 48" lights diagonally. It will work, obviously, if you don't have or need 48" lights.

Melamine if you want/need to have 48" lights taking up a minimal amount of space.

>>I am redoing my diagram, and will repost it to see if I have captured all of your excellent ideas. You don't happen to live within a state of Indiana and want to build a cage do you?

Umhh, I did live in Indiana for a few months last year. But now I'm in South Dakota... a bit far away.
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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

purduecg Sep 10, 2004 01:40 PM

The file got a little big, so you guys may need to expand your browser window to see the details of things, otherwise the browser will just show big gray blobs. I think I could build the new design. It is much simpler, but probably a better place for an amateur to start.

My main remaining quiestion, other than the ones in the previous post, is this, I use sand as a substrate, and usually dump a 50lb bag of sand in my 40 gallon breeder, and these cages are 2 sq ft, bigger than that. How do I reinforce the floors of the tanks to handle that kind of weight?

I am also not very clear on what you were saying about the vine molding on your tank. Do the glass doors go all the way to the edges but the molding covers up that part?

Thanks again for all your help, I am beginning to think I can tackle this, it will be a weekend FULL of learning experiences! lol.

Elizabeth
Image
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1.0 Uro Archimedes
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 02:03 PM

>>My main remaining quiestion, other than the ones in the previous post, is this, I use sand as a substrate, and usually dump a 50lb bag of sand in my 40 gallon breeder, and these cages are 2 sq ft, bigger than that. How do I reinforce the floors of the tanks to handle that kind of weight?

For your design you'll have sections of plywood extending between the side panels on both the front and the back. The floors of the cage will be glued and screwed into all four of these panels.

When that's all done you might also add on a vertical support in the back. This sort of rules out using 48" light strips, though, as it will be hard to move them around this strip.

But again, use of mercury vapors solves a lot of these problems and is clearly better for Uros.

But regarding sand, is it considered safe for Uros? I ask because it is basically not recommended for all other desert lizards due to impaction problems.

You might be able to save a lot of weight by using another substrate. I'm not up on Uro husbandry so you'll have to check elsewhere.

>>I am also not very clear on what you were saying about the vine molding on your tank. Do the glass doors go all the way to the edges but the molding covers up that part?

The vine moulding covers up the 3/4" exposed edge of plywood. It also overhangs across the front of the cage by another inch or so.

So the cage is 49.5" wide. *Between* the two side panels is 48" wide. Between the two inside edges of the moulding is about 46" or so.

So it covers the cut edge of the ply, but also covers the area where the glass meets to plywood side of the cage. This allows any imperfections on how the glass meets the side to be covered up. It also allows the glass track to be cut short and have the cut end hid behind the moulding. This makes cleaning much easier.
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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

purduecg Sep 10, 2004 02:14 PM

Fantastic, I think I am ready to go!

As for the sand, it is a matter of debate just like everything else surrounding Uros, and probably all other reptiles. It works the best of all the substrates for my particular pet (and we have tried almost all of them!), so I use it. The current favorite substrate seems to be a dirt/soil/sand/vermiculite mixture, which I have not tried, but that would be even heavier, in this particular case.

Thank you again for all of your help. You are certainly an amazing resource!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Uro Archimedes
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

purduecg Sep 10, 2004 02:09 PM

Thank you Chris,

You seem to be quite the all around herper! I do not currently have any 48in fixtures, so I don't think I am going to worry very much about that.

Any words of wisdom on non-toxic stains and sealants? or will any water based products work?

The dakotas definitely would be a bit of a hike, good job on not staying in Indiana! I keep getting sucked back in here.

Elizabeth
-----
1.0 Uro Archimedes
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 02:28 PM

>>Any words of wisdom on non-toxic stains and sealants? or will any water based products work?

I'm not the most skilled when it comes to staining the thin, real-wood layer of laminated plywood. You might ask a professional at a paint specialty store specifically about birch plywood and what stains work best on it.

My GF picked out the stain for the Bearded Cage and neither of us can remember what type it was.

If they recommend an oil-product don't worry about it, it will just take longer to cure.

I have used water based polyurethane (Polycrylic) in my Bearded Dragon cage and love it. Very easy to work with and to get a nice finish. However, it has not held up well on the floor, hence my recommendation for some sort of plastic flooring or coating.

Sand, claws, and small water spills really beat up the floor.

You will likely have to re-touch the cage walls in the lifetime of the cage. If this is a concern then take the extra time and use and oil-based poly upfront.
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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

chris_harper2 Sep 10, 2004 02:33 PM

Well not really math - the math itself is not that difficult - but be very carful when planning how much space to leave for lights, access, etc.

After you pick out light fixtures don't forget things like the thickness of the false-ceiling frame when it comes to caluclating the dimensions of your different panels.

These are questions I can't answer for you because I don't have the exact products in front of me.
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1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

purduecg Sep 10, 2004 02:35 PM

I had JUST been thinking about that sort if thing, lol.

I will post pictures of the process, it should be amusing for all who observe, lol.

Elizabeth
-----
1.0 Uro Archimedes
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

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