Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guy--Just thought you might like to know that I work for the Western Pa. Humane Society in Pittsburgh, and we just got an e-mail from someone with a complaint about your posts and photos...

I doubt that you could be charged with animal cruelty, but be aware that your fairly constant photos are causing problems for many people...I own snakes myself and understand what feeding them involves, but I have to say I think you take it to the point of obsession...I hope you continue to post, just with fewer visuals..and try to remember there are lots of things that make snakes interesting; how and what they eat is only a part of it...Just a heads up...

SR

He might not get in trouble for cruelty, but the illegal trades/sales he is trying to make can surely get him in trouble. He may be a kid, but it his responsibility to know the law before he tries to make deals with people to buy/sell/trade snakes that he caught.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

I pause and wonder at the posts I'm reading here. These snakes are predatory animals, not domesticated predators like dogs and cats, but real live flesh eating animals.

As such they kill, and they eat.

Andy...You feed lots of snakes. Pulling carcasses out of a freezer (or even rodents that are fresh killed)results in the same thing. A snake eating another creature. You watch (as we all do because we need to be sure they feed safely). How much of this is real objection...and how much is your personal anomosity towards Mike?

That Mike puts up photos of snakes doing what all snakes do is objectionable only to those who chose to sweep a part of what snakes are under the carpet, because it's not nice enough to suit their sensibilities. These people would only be satisfied if snakes ate dog biscuits so it wouldn't upset them.

I have a real problem with people who profess to love reptiles yet cannot handle seeing what they really do. It is not cruelty to feed a snake it's natural food. I suppose that little objection above also applies to snakes eating Mice? How about crickets or worms.....fish?

This is one of the most ridiculous threads I have ever seen on a herp forum. Snakes are not toys people. If you can't handle what they are, then get out of the hobby.

Someone else said it best. "If you don't want to see it, don't click on the post." Stop trying to censor everyone else!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

My objection is that he seems to ONLY CARE ABOUT THIS. For a while he was obsessed with albinos. Now it is feeding snakes. That is what all of his posts are about, give or take a few. I feed snakes when necessary. Hell, I kept a coral snake. I have no problem watching a snake devour another snake. But that is just a small aspect of a species' life and care. The thing I always do though is make an honest effort to switch a snake over to a domestic feeder. Why? Not because I have problems with a snake eating another snake, but because I would rather not support a captive snake with wild snakes. Those feeder snakes are being taken for a captive, dead end animal. That animal will never breed in the wild, mix in its genes, etc. But on a whole, I can sit there all day and watch a snake eat another snake. For Michael, ophiophagous nature seems to be the only trait that matters. Another good species to look at is hognose. If I must take wild toads to feed a hognose, I take dead ones that have been hit by cars.

I never complained about cruelty. I could care less about that. I have seen snakes get their heads literally ripped off. It happens. They get run over, chopped up, etc. I have a problem with that, but not feeding snakes to other snakes if need be. As you said, it is nature.

My other issue is the fact that he continues to try and make illegal deals regarding the animals he catches. If you ever check the "other forum," he has been called on it multiple times but always pulls his ad before any action can be taken leaving simple smileys or laughs behind where the ad was. If he wants to further the knowledge of snakes, then fine. But it seems to me that thus far he has done nothing of the sort, nor does he intend to.

I have no problem with your point of view, but this is simply mine. And no amount of reasoning, posting, yadee yaddah, will change that. But I have road cruising to attend to. Happy herping.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

O.k. this is enough

Lets look at the last feeding post by one Michael F.
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=534183,534183
Is it not obvious that he is trying to convert Diadophus p.
to eating Pinkies? A prey Item that the snake would never seen in the wild! I tried about about 5 years ago and nothing! I could only get them to eat salamanders (I love Sallies)! All of us know the problem , You scent and you scent but the snake still will not eat! Do any of the people that have a problem with this even own an ophiophagus snake? Does anyone remember the outcry when reptiles magazine had a snake swallowing a mouse on there cover?

Michael is advancing the hobby end of storry!!! I have talked to him a few times off-line and he appears to be fairly knowledgable. If he is a kid who cares? You buy from children all of the time and probably do not even know it. Go to the shows the majority of people in ther buying from us are young men with a serious interest. Most are as suprised as you were when you figured out that there were other people interested in buying your babies unless you got into it with the idea of making a product!He has never offered a snake to me or a deal. I have offered him salamanders for nothing ! Isnt that what we are here for to help other herpers as well as to legitimize ourselves. The time has come to stop making a soap opera out of our hobby and stop complaining about what others do unless it is against the law. BTW if he has offered any ringnecks for sale that were wild caught in PA geuss what? It is not illegal!
Here is a list of the endangered and or threatened species in Pa http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/wrcf/franda.aspx
It seems to me that there are unjust attacks on this young Man and I am unsure about what off line conversation started this but when it comes down to it I am willing to bet the person who started it will be selling CB Ringnecks.
This is what starts PIT tagging demanded by the state is some one who is a big name writes the law and all of a sudden a species that is not even listed as being native to your state ends up on the list and someone else makes money off of you! Dig deep before you start these threads.

That was a great post. I am new here but he has given me great help with care for ringnecks not to mention his site I like.

Lia

Andy, Thank you for the clarification.

My issue is not with what deals Mike makes (I have no knowledge of those and it's not a point that interests me here).

What I worry about is the small voice of censorship. I recently left a writer's forum (part of a professional organisation that was costing me $60. a year in dues for business reasons) because they had so thoroughly ruined it by petty rules on what you could write and show, that it had lost the ability to serve it's function.

Everytime I meet one of those people who want to sanitise this hobby or cry about the fact that snakes can't eat (nice food) like dogchow or vegetables I want to puke.

Mike does seem to like finding photos but I think it is more that he is excited by Ringnecks (Regals in particular) and he is bragging on them like a guy would brag on owning a fast cool car.

That is why I am preaching tollerence here. If you seem to promote the small minds, they will take it as acceptance and eventually they will censor the blood out of this forum too.

That is why clarification was important.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Liar

jeeps..this whole thread was crazy. from my point of view, I really am not sure what to say. If he is trading and selling illegally, then yeah, go after him. The pics WERE a little ridiculous, what I saw of them. It's not cruelty, but it's not necessary.
happy herping,
cali

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Cali
"Beauty is in the eye, but if the eye is ugly, it can see no beauty."
"Hand over the coffee and no one gets hurt."
-Garfield..
When life hands you lemons, throw them back and say "MAKE YOUR OWN @#$*^$ LEMONADE!!"
thexelahfiles@yahoo.com

The fact that the controversial pics aren't mine. That's not saying I don't feed my snakes other snakes, cause I do, my regal ate a small snake earlier today. I agree with what most of you people said, but seriously, relax. Just don't look at my posts if you don't wanna, if you do it'll be your fault when you complain about them. I'll admit I have been getting a little out of hand with posting snake vs. snake pics, so that will stop.
Michael

Michael's Place

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www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Michael_Fedzen@hotmail.com

"Liar" who do you refer to and why you say so ?

I apologize for the "Liar" post it was not meant and I do not know how to delete it I am not into name calling so once again I apologize for the mess up.
Paul Pipes

If you don't like it, don't read the post. Isn't this a forum? I've seen many posts where people are all bent out of shape over Michael feeding snakes to snakes. Its nature, deal with it. He's not feeding rare or endangered species to his snakes. If you want a real cause, consider the Asian turtle crisis. Do you feed your turtles feeder fish? Do you eat meat? Come on, let's find something else to beat into the ground. The humane society, jesus, if it was up to those quacks nobody would be allowed to keep any herps.

Choose your battle a little more carefully.

Just my two cents worth.

Jay

Since you were so judgmental, I would also like to put in my own observation. If you are what you claim, you are actually committed a serious procedural mistake by leaking an ongoing investigation case to the public eyes, it may cost your job and it's unfair to Michael because that will only attract more attack on him. If you were not what you claim, then you are a liar.