Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Cruelty can basicaly be defined as causing pain and/or suffering for the purposes of torture, to coerce, kill or for entertainment.

The feeding of reptiles to other reptiles (a common event in nature) hardly qualifies as cruelty. since photos of such merely illustrate a natural event, photos of such cannot be considered cruel as well.

It is the same thing as watching a human eat a chicken drumstick (a still recognisable animal part) that was killed by a machine and then cut to pieces and burnt to suit the human pallet.

Rather obvious how silly this is when you put it in perspective......

Of course we could all join PETA and become Vegetarians....(lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

.

True . If its cruel to feed a reptile another reptile,amphibian isnt it than cruel to to feed cat food to a cat(it contains fish,chicken) or dog food to a dog(it contains lamb,etc)?
Lia

I find it hypocritical that the same objections are not raised when people post pics of their snakes killing and eating mice, rats, rabbits, etc.
-Alice

If you feed a live reptile/amphibian/rodent... wouldnt it then be cruelty? Think of how the animal you are feeding must feel as its last moments are spent in the jaws of something much bigger and stronger than itself.

Also chickens/cows/pigs aren't killed for any other reason other than food and its done in a humane manner. The animals aren't put in a box with a guy with a chainsaw. You see if there was a television show where a person strangled a pig and then ate it. It would be cruetly.

I couldn't tell you how many television shows I see with snakes killing their prey, and you know why? Cause its entertaining, its fascinating.

If you gave a cat a live mouse just to play with, that would be cruelty. But if it did it in nature, away from human interference... then it would be natural, uncruel. But when you bring a human into the picture things change. It's no longer nature vs nature. It's cruel in the aspect that the animal being fed has no chance of survival. It's a death sentence, and thats why I think people have a problem with it.

Me personally, I feed my snakes once a week. Why? Because I love my snakes, and they need to eat. I feed them all f/t prey.

Its 1:28 am I apologize for any spelling errors or typos.
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1.0 Normal Corn Snake
1.0 Ball Python
1.0 BCI
0.1 California King

Good post and points. I especially like the natural aspect of it, which I have brought up repeatedly recently. This isn't nature. These are captive dead end animals. It doesn't really matter what they would eat in the wild as they are no longer in the wild (of course you have a to respect an animal's requirements). I try to work towards what is best for an animal, the prey, and nature. I do not let taking toads, snakes, etc. just to feed to my captive snakes unless I really just have to to keep the animal alive. In that case, I still work on getting them onto a better diet. If you have to feed snakes to other herps, why not use DOR's? They are easy to find, especially species such as rats, browns, and Nerodia and DOR snakes are pretty common as well.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

Many States have laws limiting the amount of even common snakes you may have in your possession, dead or alive. These laws are designed to curb the damages of over collecting. These laws do not mean one's immediate possession while in the field at a given time, they refer to over all possession. It is my opinion that it is an unethical and unprofessional practice that some keepers collect way beyond these limits to feed a captive snake. It may skirt the technical wording of such laws but it does violate the purpose of the law. I have also seen many people collect in this manner and sell the animals off. I have seen this and other illegal transactions offered on this and other web sites. Unfortunately this is way too common. Because such individuals are disregarding the ethics and laws of this hobby it is predictable that more and more locations will outlaw herp collecting and keeping all together.

I have now made an unpopular decision. If I see someone KNOWINGLY doing something illegal I will notify the appropriate State or other agency. In the past I have warned well meaning hobbyists from being dragged into illegal transactions and I have educated others who have collected, offered, or wished to collect or offer illegal animals without realizing their mistake. These things I will continue to do in order to support and foster my hobby and its legitimate community, but I will protect my hobby and its community from those who knowingly or purposely disregard the laws. I also feel that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for any avid herper. I am tired of people trying to sell me protected species or animals from states that do not allow the commercial traffic of indigenous species when they know or should know the unlawfulness of their proposition.

I also extend my thanks and respect to all the ethical herpers out there, ones I have dealt with and others I have yet to know.

Randy

Good post. I never overcollect nor collect without a permit. I am also an avid fisherman and stay well within the limits of my license. Wildlife management is the key to preserving herps (as well as other creatures) for the future generations to see.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

I will feed my snakes brown anoles, which are an introduced species in the southern united states where they take up habitat and replace the native green anole. I consider it a public service.

No problem with cutting back the non-natives. Weeding out the introduced species that compete for the same niche with our natives IS a public service.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

lol But couldn't you be hurting a native species by taking out an introduced population of animals?
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1.0 Normal Corn Snake
1.0 Ball Python
1.0 BCI
0.1 California King

I can't think of any instance where that would apply. I don't really know of any snakes that feed exclusively on an introduced species. By removing introduced species you are restoring the balance that once existed pre-escapee animals. I would be interested in hearing anything the removal of introduced animals hurting native animals.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

Exclusively? No i didn't say that, I just think that introduced species can be easier prey then native species. They aren't as well suited to the specific environment as the native species. I also don't think you could remove an introduced species that have a decent foothold.
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1.0 Normal Corn Snake
1.0 Ball Python
1.0 BCI
0.1 California King

That isn't always the case though. Some species are adapted too well. And that is why they keep breeding, and keep spreading, and push our natives out. Look at Bufo marinus. Look at bullfrogs out west. They are too well suited for the new environments to be contained.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

the weaker species? Even if it was introduced? Isn't this survival of the fittest? I mean animals have crossed oceans and deserts...now they have a more relaible mode of transport... us.
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1.0 Normal Corn Snake
1.0 Ball Python
1.0 BCI
0.1 California King

Introduced species represent a serious threat to native species. If we let nature take its course then we will lose biodiversity and face mass extinctions.If we are to survive for the long term we have to consider ourselve caretakers of nature, because if we don't act in nature behalf, the natural course of events for a dominate species such as ourselves is ultimately self destruction.

I agree. If Bufo marinus was meant to cross to an ocean, then so be it. But we picked them up and put them them in an environment where they have no predators and are wreaking havoc among native species. That is not nature, or at least what I would not consider it to be.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

We are actualy close to that here in Florida. Our Southern Black Bacers (as juveniles) feed almost exclusevly on Anoles (but not our native species as it has become rare in in the suburban areas where you still find Racers.

In the suburban areas of S. Florida it is extremely rare to find Skinks, Race runners, or any other native lizard. Most of the frog population is from elsewhere, toads as well. So pretty much any animal that feeds on those foods is eating almost exclusevly exotics.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I still think it would probably be better for the ecosystem to remove their introduced species. That way, the green anoles could begin to grab a hold over areas that browns/knights/whatever other species have "control" of now. And I am not sure on the effects of some of the anuran introductions, but can name at least 2 that are toxic. The cubans have some sort of toxin and Bufo marinus is dangerously toxic. I have no qualms about saying that they should be removed. The native species might hurt for a while, but populations of natives are sure to rebound given that conditions are right.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

Right on both species. B.m. is responsible for the extinction of the Hognose Snake and the native toad species in areas where they invade. The cuban tree frog (who has a very irritating slime, that burns the eyes) has been highly destructive to green tree frogs.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I found that out the hard way...or rather remembered it the hard way. For some reason it slipped my mind while in the Caymans two years ago. I caught dozens of large cubans one night, and the stupidly rubbed my eyes. Immediately after, I remembered that I was in trouble. It was extremely uncomfortable. But hey, I will never touch my eyes after catching another. Learned my lesson.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

Yeah...Been there.

The end result of the two species (Bufos and Cubans) has been a almost complete disappearance of all frog and toad species from my nieghborhood (including them) except for Greenhouse frogs another introduced species).

I also have local populations of Amevias, Curly tails, Basilisks, Green Iguana, Knight and Bark Anoles and Braminy Blind snakes.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Yeah...Been there.
>>
>>The end result of the two species (Bufos and Cubans) has been a almost complete disappearance of all frog and toad species from my nieghborhood (including them) except for Greenhouse frogs another introduced species).
>>
>>I also have local populations of Amevias, Curly tails, Basilisks, Green Iguana, Knight and Bark Anoles and Braminy Blind snakes.
>>
>>Frank
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>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"Some things will never change. They just stand there looking backwards. Half-unconsious from the pain. They may seem rearranged. In the backwater swirling. There is something that'll never change-The Meat Puppets"

I am probably going to be sorry and be ridiculed for not reading every post in this thread but I do agree with it not being vruel but at the same time as a matter of resect for my fellow researchers I would not be going to a snake forum were everyone love, workes, lives with snakes and show them pictures of a snake eating another snake or so on and so forth. Just like I would not go to a chickes rights forum and show a picture of me eating chicken. Its just a matter of respect.
My reptile collection and research

It's not a matter of respect. That some snakes eat snakes is part of what they are. So there is a certain value in pictoral evidence that supports increased knowledge of this. This silly attitude that we can make them "nicer" by denying this aspect is actually (in some cases) harmful to these animals.

For example: For many years it was next to impossible to keep king Cobras unless you either tube fed or offered live snakes. Finally a tecnique has been found to turn them to accepting other food items.

It is only "tastless" to display photos if the practice of showing pictures becomes compulsive and is motivated by sensationalism.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I am a meatatarian, I don't believe that it is humane to eat vegitables. First of all they are usually eaten alive and while they are still babies. Secondly acres and acres of rainforest are torned down every year to grow them. Just because an organism doesn't look like you or feel pain in the same way that you do, doesn't give you the right to peel its skin off and boil it alive!!

Let me remind you guys that we as in humans are a member of the global ecosystem, we eat and we excrete and we are therefore a part of nature, and who's to say then that an animal hitching a ride on a human boat is takeing an un-natural ride? As well, removing a non-native species from an area does not in any way restore the system to how it was before, the damage is done, the equilibrium is destroyed and some of the animals are dead, but if you insist on removing non-native species you can start by removing the most destructive one of all......US
Demon

Exactly the point. We adversely affect nature and therefore cannot let nature just take its course, we have to manage the course it takes. Between you, me and my M16, your absolutely correct.