Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi to everybody. I am an experienced herp and exotic keeper (iguana, ball python, eastern box turtles, GM Day Gecko, assorted parrots and furry critters) heading into a new experience by setting up my first viquarium. The tank is a 49 gallon tall acrylic with a screen top covered by a decorative oak hood. There is space and ballast for up to 6 fluorescent lights under 30" long (I realize I won't need that many! This was originally a saltwater fishtank.) I plan to use real plants on the land portion (already ordered from Arizona Aquatic Gardens. EXCELLENT site for finding reptile-safe plants, BTW!) planted in organic soil over gravel and laterite, a center divider of glass or acrylic sealed in, and gravel and rocks on the water side. I have got a submersible filter and pump, and also have undergravel filter plates from the old saltwater setup, and an undertank heating pad. I want to do the waterfall/stream bed method I keep hearing about, but can't seem to find clear instructions on how this is best set up. Since Tetra no longer makes their Viquarium kit, I am trying to design this on my own. Has anybody here built anything like this, and would you share the details?

Frogs and anole will be here next week (1 baby green anole, 2 CB baby red eye tree frogs, 1 CB baby blue azureus, 1 red banded frog, 2 firebelly toads), along with plants (both terrestrial and aquatic) and moss. I already have everything else, including rocks, wood, etc. Any setup advice, particularly as to filter placement, substrate and how to best rig the waterfall/stream, would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!!!!
Wendy

Sounds like it's going to be a beautiful set up. But one question... are you planning on putting all of those amphibians in the same tank? It's never a good iead to mix like that especially the Fire Belly toads. Frogs have very thin skin and the toxins from the Fire Bellies will kill them. As could the stress of the Anols and all the other frogs in the tank. You may end up with more problems than you would want to deal with and a lot of waisted money when they all start dying off.

I'm sure others here will be able to give you good pointers, there are some very knowledgable people on this board.

Good luck
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Hmmm...these were all listed as compatible tankmates in all 3 of the herp books I checked, and the herp guy at the zoo also said they would be fine together. Have you known anybody who put these guys together and had a problem? If my $8.00 anole eats my $65.00 azureus, I'm going to be one unhappy camper!!!!!

Wendy

I don't know anyone personally but I have read about a lot of problems. I can't seem to find the link, but there is a section here on Kingsnake with accounts of mixed species problems.

I'm quite surprized that not only books but a Zoo would condone mixing like that. The firebellies alone could kill everything because of how toxic they are.

Perhaps someone else here can point the way to where one can read up on all those stories of the problems others have had mixing species.
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Simply put don't mix anything you don't want to die, because all those animals are from completely different countries, and they are not compatible, and yes your anole would try to eat your azures and he would die and probobly take it down too. And if it didn't die everything else would too becuase of feeding frenzies, they would bite each other, and get poisined.

Do not mix any of those animals together. Not even different species af darts are suppsoed to be mixed. They will hyridize. I suggest put one species in there. No more.
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Was that supposed to be hybridize?? If so, that is not a concern in this setup. I have never heard of different species of darts hybridizing, but since there is only one dart here, it's not an issue. And I guarantee that no dart is goung to breed with a toad, tree frog, or anole!

Of course I mean hybridize. Obviously you have done NO research AT ALL. You should know dart species will interbreed. And as for mixing them and them not breeding, you are stupid and ignorant. You would think you would listen to people with experience, but no wait a month or so when you have dead frogs and anoles. Poor frogs...
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

As I clearly stated in my last post, THERE IS ONLY ONE DART FROG IN THIS SETUP, SO HOW CAN IT INTERBREED???

How old are you anyway?? Adults do not generally sink so low as to childishly refer to one another as "stupid and ignorant" during conversations, and most respectable forums do not allow this type of ridiculous behavior. Or do you come from some sort of abusive history where people speak to each other this way? As for my research, it is pretty clearly outlined in nymerous above posts. I had no reason to research the interbreeding a dart frogs, BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY ONE IN MY SETUP. I strongly advise you to actually READ posts before replying....and then to grow up!

Chill out man, I have more experience than you would dream of. Think I don't know you only have one dart? Your dart will die with your fire-bellied toad. Fire-bellies are from Asia, and where are darts from? Central and South America. Same climate? Not a chance. Wanna talk to RD Bartlett himslef and ask his opinion? Wait a week until he gets back from Peru and go to the field notes forum. Sounds like you are the one whjo is close minded and your way isn't right. Your way is horrible and will sacrifice your frogs' lives. Later you will say "hey, maybe they were right" but too late then...
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Again, are you ABLE to enter this discussion cordially, and without insulting people? So far, it does not seem so....

Well, to me it seems you are the incorrect one. How could you think of mixing species that originate from the Orient, the North American south, and the tropics! Whoever told you that was OK is one of those people that irks me the most about this hobby. Anyone on this earth who tells you that firebellies can be mixed with ANYTHING in captivity is a liar. I have lived and learned, sadly. I followed old Joe's advice from the pet store, sure put those fbts in with the leopard frogs, and ended up with no less than four dead leo fogs and one dead bronze frog. hmm, do you think the toad's toxins had Anything to do with this...? The deaths happened after feeding frenzies, in which every creature in the tank will attempt eating anything that moves. and licking a fbt accidentally = death. if you put fbts in your tank, prepare for financial loss as well as anuran and lizard despair.
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*~Ginevive~*

Exactly...Wow he works at a zoo so he is instantly an expert on everything. I could probably work at the zoo. Do I? No, but I sure as hell could take care of some of those animals better than they do. Something to think about. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Again, I'd really like to see some links on this. I rechecked the Bartlet book, which shows that this is fine, and looked up a number of experts online. The strongest expert opinion I could find was "many people have done this successfully given the appropriate setup. Watch carefully, as each herp is different, and there is always a chance of trouble, even in same species tanks." (oh, and my anole is barely big enough to swallow a cricket at this point. He is still a baby, which was what was recommended to get for successful mixing.)

I realize that many people have their own personal opinions about mixing, and for some reason numerous forums often have individuals who have a strict "never mix anything ever" stance, but who also, when asked, will admit that they have never actually done it themselves, or know of any hard data to support their opinions. Occasional problems appear from individuals on the forums, yet if compared, problems in same species tanks show up with equal frequency.

Truthfully, if anyone has any actual data on this, I would appreciate the info and be happy to look at it, but I researched the animals pretty thoroughly prior to selection. My ACTUAL question, in the original post, was about how to properly set up the equipment in the tank, and I would really like to hear from anybody who can give tips on this.

Thanks!
Wendy

whether or not the original question was about the set up, our concerns are on the safety of the animals. i would never even dream to mix a dart frog with a firebelly toad. like mentioned above have you read the caresheets on each of the animals? most of them arent even from the same side of the world!!!!

i would consider asking these "experts" research, but single sided research. have you talked to other people whom have had community tanks? nearly in all the cases it didnt work.

tell me this, if you go to south america and find a azeraus (spell?) will you find a firbelly toad (in the wild of course). i really dought it.
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Click Here to See My Dart Tank In The Making UPDATED 6.15.03 SPOILER! Still Needs Moss View At Your Own Risk

You can only go so far as to create the right environment for your frogs. It's hard to create the exact environment in captivity, unless you got a lot of money; then maybe you can create rain chamber and elaborate heating system. Most will do fine if there basic requirements are met. I don't think the set-up for mixed species is the problem, but the fact that different species will stress each other out.

Yes, stress level is one thing everyone agrees needs to be watched closely, though it can be an issue in same species setups as well, if you get that "bully" critter. The gentleman at the zoo was particularly helpful in this, and said that once the compatible herps have been decided upon, it is best to get everybody of similar sizes and comparable growth rates, and to provide a large area with plenty of foilage and hiding spaces. He also said that the anoles and geckos on the safe list should only ever be introduced as babies, as small as possible, so that they are accustomed to living with the frogs by the time they attain any size, and that there should not be more than one of these guys. Also, everyone seems to agree that ALL inhabitants should be captive bred, as WC are especially unpredictable in these situations.

I'll keep everyone posted things go along.

Yes, I have spoken with other people who have community tanks, and can supply you with a link that displays some nice ones that appear to have been quite successful, if you like. I am sure the herp experts are equally concerned about animal safety, which is why they advise CAREFULLY researching and selecting species that will be compatible in a community vivarium, and explain in detail how to do this.

Compatibility, BTW, has little to do with what "part of the world" you are from, as species who live in the same region often eat each other (aka The Food Chain), and much more to do with environmental requirements, dietary requirements, temperment, etc. You could find two herps in the same TREE and not have them be compatible, as one may have chased the other there to eat it!

ya you can can find two frogs in a tree in the wild. thats a large enviroment. i na tank they are all cramed into an enviroment thats a going to big 99.9998 times smaller then their actulle habitat.

just lets us know in about 6 months how it turns out.
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Click Here to See My Dart Tank In The Making UPDATED 6.15.03 SPOILER! Still Needs Moss View At Your Own Risk

You seem to have missed the point. I said that finding two frogs in the same tree does NOT insure compatibility, that it is the other factors.

Yes, I will certainly keep everyone posted on this, as it seems to be a difficult issue for some here. Strange, seems much more common practice in the Netherlands, in the UK...no trouble finding knowledgable individuals there who know just who can be mixed and who can't, and some have posted pics of their setups online, truly beautiful!

What do you regard as success? Many of those animals can hit 10...maybe 15 years in age. I would love to see if any of them live to their potential. And as for all these people and links, how long have they had their tanks up? A poster who seems to have left at the moment, mark, had a mixed tank that worked for years. One day he came in and the frogs had killed each other. Sure, some may work for a time, possibly years, but when something like that happens, do you consider it a success? I don't...
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

A success to me is where all animals remain healthy and active, live to a ripe old age and die a natural death, and no one eats anyone else.

You won't get that success with your mixing tank. Fire-bellies like it cool, red-eyes like it warm, darts like it in between.
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

In mixing species in a tank, we are gambling. Here's a scenario: the anoles have sharp teeth. During feeding, one of the anoles bites into the dart, or one of the treefrogs, thinking he is a cricket. On the ball python forum, I read: Reptiles view everything they encounter as (a)a threat, (b)food, or (c)part of the landscape. A moving frog is definately not being viewed as, say, a bump on a log. So it is either seen by the liz as food or a threat, either way is bad. Either the frog gets chomped, or the liz is stressed, paving the way for an early death, because stress does a hugely bad number on herps. Is that something anyone wants to put their herps through? Say the liz bites into the frog, confusing him with a cricket. Now, you have a frog with a semi-severed rear leg. What do you do? Seperate the frog and watch it die, or euthanize it? You said in a past post that you would remove the dart at the first sign of trouble. What if this happens overnight, and the frog suffers til morning? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and there is no cure for a severed frog limb. In my opinion, it would be less heart rending to just put all seperate species in seperate tanks. I am not trying to be cruel, and am definately not name-calling. I only ask, what would you do if (I should say when) the lixard bites the frog?
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*~Ginevive~*

Good point (and no, you were not in any way name-calling, and were very cordial!), just because some anoles are known to coexist peacefully with frogs does not mean they all will, or that mistakes cannot happen. And if faced with the question of "Do I want to risk the dart frog being hurt?", I would say "No!". And even to the more dispassionate, dollars and sense question of "Do I want to risk the $5 anole hurting the $70 dart?", the answer is again, "No!".

I think this is where private individuals really differ from those in zoos. Zoo animals, while cared for, are not in reality "pets", zoos tend to have herpatological veterinarians immediately on hand for emergencies, and if a loss or injury does happen, it is regretfully recorded and things move on.

Private individuals like you and me look at things differently, both in terms of money and our feeling for our pets. Thank you for making such a good point, and making it in such a nice way!

Yes, and why risk hurting and killing the poor animals...right...when so many experienced keepers tell you of their bad results.

I dont like how you sort of place a dart frog's life over a "5$ anole's life." I mean...they are all living beings. But I like to see when people rate them like that (cough cough)...makes them seem more like objects. Thanks again. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

By crikey, this looks like the longest thread in kingsnake history...sigh. I give up on it. My last advice is, just don't chance it. There can be no benefit to mixing them, not one single benefit I can dream up unless you like to watch stressed animals chase one another around and compete for food. Sounds like an ancient Roman gladatorial match to me. Call me paranoid and pessimistic, but I like to rest safely in the knowledge that my herps cannot rip one another apart while I am not eyeballing them. My final recommendations are to keep all the seperate species in seperate tanks with secure lids and the correct setups. If not, the animals might live for a week or maybe a year in the combined setup, but it would probably be more like a few days before someone either catches parasites from another, gets poisoned by cross-toxicity, or gets nipped and loses a limb. On the sub. of zoos, I never saw herps mixed a any zoo I visited; the Buffalo Zoo has only a handful of frogs, but they are all in their own species-specific terrariums. I can not imagine any zookeeper, doctor or vet telling someone to mix firebelly toads with any other species, unless his dad knew the college administrators and had a lot of cash to pay them for his son's veterinary diploma.
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*~Ginevive~*

You seem to have missed a large number of posts below, given your comments in this one. Understandable, in a thread this long and so disrupted by flamers going off on tangents.

I don't have the time to retype all you seem to have missed, but rather than tell you to wade through all of this, I would suggest you look just a little below this post to a response I wrote to chesireycat, which summarizes a bunch of responses in one place. You may want to hold off on further attempting to libel Dr. H until you have at least read it.

I think the original person who asked the question about designing his/her vivarium had a very large and tall tank and was planning on a tiered waterfall or stream set-up, and a divider. Yes, he/she did mention purchasing a complicated variety of species, but also stated that he/she has been an experienced reptile/amphibian owner who obviously knows how to do their homework. Lets just give each person a chance for their posted question to be answered, then you can launch into your diatribe on how much of an "seemingly unexperienced" expert you are. Otherwise this forum does no good for anybody but the people on their soap boxes. I am a novice who is building a 300 gallon vivarium with 2 ponds, waterfall, misting, heaters, timed lighting, you name it. I was considering adding frogs but I'm still doing my homework. Just consider that some people do have the time, resources or money if that's what you need, to properly recreate any environment in the world. Ever been to the zoo? I personally could create 10 different zones the size of your jailcell of a tank and I've only spent $120 in materials. I have dozens of questions but I hesitate to post them here because everyone seems to own just one frog or must have 20 little jail cells. Is this so an African clawed toad doesn't get stressed out with the presence of a green tree frog 5 feet above them nowhere near each other? Which would be more stressful to you? Enough for now, peace be with you and lets help each other instead of our egos.
Surfrog
P.S. pictures to come

Just had to reply to say THANK YOU!!! At last, a voice a courtesy and reason, as opposed to a self-proclaimed "expert" on a soapbox! I have never understood the individuals who seem to think that forums are for the purpose of FORCING their opinions on others, and flaming anyone who does not agree. Thank you so much for a polite and open-minded reply. I would love to talk with you about the setup you are designing sometime!

...
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Derek, are you somehow of the belief that anoles, red-eyes and firebellies are subspecies OF DART FROGS???? Otherwise, your rantings about inbreeding, childish namecalling and predictions of doom make absolutely no sense.

If you can find a way to participate in this conversation in a cordial and adult manner, please do so. Otherwise, I don't think anybody is truly interested in this kind of immature behavior.

excuse me? I have been in this hobby just shy of a decade, think I don't know what darts are? Think I don't know what red-eyes are? Anoles? Do some research and tell me where all those come from and then tell me the climate is the same and I can laugh. I will save you time

Darts: Lower central america and south america
Red-eyes: Upper Central America
Anoles: South US
Fire-bellied toads: asia (rice paddies)

hmmm......
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Yes, I am aware of where they come from, which is why the habitat gets set up with BOTH land and water areas, different temperature gradients, etc. It's really not a difficult concept, if you have the time and money to do it properly.

I am happy that you have some experience, though you do not say what it is. I have nearly 30 years herp experience myself, and those I consulted with had much more that me, which is why I defer to their expertise.

So you are aware there is only one dart frog here, you have still not explained how it is "stupid and ignorant" to not believe it can breed with itself and hybridize......

Please listen to me, if no one else. firebelly toads are poisonous, and anything that licks them will most likely die. and it is a slow death; i watched my favorite bronze frog die of convulsions after he tried eating the fbt and spit it out. Please don't put fbts in with other species!
I know how trying it can be to create seperate environments for all your pet herps. I would love it if i could just make one huge viquarium and combine my firebellies, horned frogs, heck even my black moors and python. but they each have such widely varying needs; don't the anoles need things like a heat rock? Also think of the wastes that would be generated in that tank. Finally, the fact that those species come from different parts of the world dictates they need different environs. And all in all, a 55 gallon high or long tank is just big enough for maybe several tree frogs, not that assortment! I would just invest in several tanks for now, not be too concerned with elaborate and fast-soiled setups, because all those critters are going to stress one another out, among other things. I know it is expensive; but well worth it.
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*~Ginevive~*

My post to you below addresses most of this, but I did want to say that UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCES should and anole (or any other herp) be given a heat rock. They are extremely dangerous, and many herps bake to death on them every year.

As for habitat requirements, since again people seem to not be doing comparisons on their own, let me just outline the temp gradients required.

Land section specs - Avg temp 75-80, w/basking spot in high 80's and high relative humidity

Inhabitant requirements -
Red Banded Frog - rec temp 75-81, w/high relative humidity
D. Azureus - rec temp 75-81, w/high relative humidity
Mini Green Anole - rec temp 75-85, w/high relative humidity and basking spot in high 80's
Red Eyes - rec temp 75-80, w/high relative humidity

Water section specs - Avg temp 70-75, extreme humidity

Inhabitant requirements -
Fire Belly Toads - rec temp mid 70's to 80, extreme humidity.

Diet for all above is comparable, with additions of occasional fruit nectar for anole. No one is large enough to eat anything other than the smallest crickets at the moment.

I addressed the size issue pretty thoroughly below, but again, like any setup, it GROWS WITH THE INHABITANTS!!!!!

And again, I defer to Dr. Hathaway on red belly toad toxicity, and will let you know his reply.

http://www.livingunderworld.org/amphibianArticles/article0007.htm

http://www.livingunderworld.org/amphibianArticles/article0011.htm

http://www.livingunderworld.org/amphibianArticles/article0018.htm

http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/articles/Mixing_disasters.html
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Thanks for the links, they are all interesting reading! Most of them don't apply to this particular setup, as they deal with mixing toads with newts and salamanders, which I do not have, but they were interesting to read all the same. And the quarantine article is a very good one, and an absolute must for any critter coming into my place. I was just discussing it above with Kanuck, as quarantine and fecal checks are something we both seem to feel pretty strongly about.

The FBT mixing disasters page is a good one as well. I had actually stumbled across it last night when I was surfing, but it's a great idea to post it here as well.

If you look at those articles it all applies, it is just using mixing toads and slamanders as examples. Now that you have those articles to prove that mixing is bad, you still refuse to listen. I think you are being very narrow-minded to the fact that the "experts" you have talked to may be wrong. Some of them may have not had the experience with those species in particular being together. And as I mentioned before, noone can know everything, and it is only human nature to make mistakes, I just don't want to see your mistakes result in the loss of many animals lives.

Refuse to listen??? Re-read the last 5 posts or so, I have not refused to listen to anyone, have emailed Dr. H to ask about all the conflicting info regarding the FBT's, am continuing to quarantine all animals separately at present, and am responding openly to all suggestions (other than those by immature flamers beneath notice). What exactly is it in this approach that you view as "narrow minded"??

I think you are being narrow-minded because you seem to think that those papres are only referring to toads and salamanders, when the whole point of the papers is about all amphibians. And I really think you should refer to more than one "expert". And i know a lot of people are mad at you on here, but you are not helping much, by referring to them as childish and such. I believe you are acting a bit childish too, and wish you would take the time to re-read those papers and look at as much information as you can, I am trying to help, but when you resort to name calling as well you seem out of reach.

if by name calling, you mean "childish, immature, etc" then yes, I said that in response to individuals who, without provocation, called me "stupid and ignorant", "no better than a troll", someone who "deserves to have their animals die", and other assorted nastiness. I have never encountered a forum where adults were even interested in this type of behavior, let alone allowed to engage in it. "Childish" is not name calling, it is a behavior type, and one that I would think other forum members would not encourage.

People who have treated me cordially, however, have received nothing but the same in return. How that could make me seem unreachable to anyone who is not planning a bout of name calling is beyond me, but as you do not elaborate, I can't really answer to this.

As for the articles, I thanked the person who posted them and mentioned in passing that the first two appeared to deal more with species I do not have, while the last two were much more applicable to my situation, and that I had emailed questions to Dr. H based on what I read. Apparantly in your mind I needed to study them in depth before thanking the person who posted them and commenting in any way??? And then needed to declare Dr. H absolutely incorrect before even speaking to him and allowing him to respond??? That, in my opinion, would have been a very narrow minded way to proceed indeed, and not something I would do to someone who has kindly extended to me so much of his time and expertise.

The fact that I am looking at what EVERYONE says and considering all information seems to me to be the opposite of the definitions of both narrow-minded and unreachable. The fact that I will not allow someone to call me cruel names and belittle me without telling them what I think of that type of behavior....simply means I have some self-respect.

You are being narrow-minded by not listening to what the poeple you reffer to as "immature" and childish" have to say, and you have stated this yourself. As for the papers I am not trying to tell you not to thank the person, but it seemed as though you had missed the whole point of them. They are referring to the mixing of any amphibians, and it seemed as though you thought it was only referring to toads and salamanders. And sure I could let lose on you with all kinds of anger but there is no point because then I make myself a worse person, and I am only trying to better myself. And I have been nothing but cordial with you, except for a couple sentences at the begginning of this thread I think. And occasionally I sound mad or irritated, but i am mad and irritated just not at you. And I see that you have noticed that these "experts" that work at the zoo's don't have the emotional attatchment that we do to our animals, so they don't worry as much if something would die. That is a step in the right direction to me.

So my question to you would be, if someone you had never met or heard of before walked up to you in the middle of a conversation, proceeded to belittle you and call you various nasty names without ever before having exchanged a word with you, and then walked away and refused to apologize for treating you as something less than human, would you then be inclined to listen to anything they had to say??? I doubt it, if you are going to be truly honest here. And it would have nothing to do with being "narrow minded". It is simply a matter of refusing to allow others to treat you as something they wipe their feet on.

It is possible that you have had personal prior experience with the individuals we are speaking of that proved them to be worth listening to. But you are not looking at this from my point of view. I had no prior experience with these individuals, had never before exchanged a single word with them. Yet they felt free to launch into immediate attack, and then tried to justify their rudeness by saying that I deserved it because I had dared to consider opinions other than theirs. I am honestly very surprised that you would support this type of behavior, since, as you said, you personally have been polite, but I don't know you well enough to understand your reasons.

In my profession, we regularly meet in forums and conferences where ideas are exchanged freely. I cannot imagine any of the professionals there making the kind of comments I have seen here, and if they did, they would no longer be welcome members of the forum. Those with knowledge share it freely and politely, as they know that this is the way to ensure it is received openly by others. Differences of opinion or alternate views are discussed with interest and respect, not name calling.

As for the articles, I really though that I had already answered this, but again, I will state that no, I did not drop everything in the middle of my work day and keep patients waiting so that I could study the articles in depth BEFORE replying to the woman who was kind enough to post them. Apparantly my noting casual observations about them in passing during the thanks violated some rule of yours, and now I am forever branded by you as "narrow minded" no matter what I say or how I explain my comments. Ah well, that is up to you.

No I think a lot of the comments are out of line on here, but by calling them names as well you are dropping yourself to the same level. And no personally I don't really have any experience talking to aany of these people. I have been on this forum for about a week. But I agree with a lot of what they say so they are pretty knowlgeable. I personally have about 13 years experience with Friebellied Toads in many different types of setups and about 10 years experience with anoles. And have studied everything I could get my hands on for years. So I knwo the interactions of many species, and remember amphibians are harder to care for than most reptiles, I have been a turtle owner for all but 2 years of my life, and I have owned lizards off and on for the better part of 14 years, as well as some snakes. That knowledge means nothing with a frog or toad or any amphibian.

Guess we just differ in our idea of "name calling". To me, describing a behavior as childish is not name calling, it's just a behavioral description.....but then, I am a behavioral therapist! LOL So I guess I can't ask other people to think in the clinical terms of my profession, and need to instead just....what....say I feel they are rude?? Is that a better way to do it?

Tell the person that you feel that they are out of line with their comments toward you. You should know this better than most if you are a behavioral therapist. I sure know this but of course I knwo human behavior better than most myself as well.

Off topic, I know, but are you a therapist as well? Or some other field of behavioral study? What specialty, if you wouldn't mind sharing? Mine is children with autism and related disorders, and I always like to trade info with other therapists.

No I'm not technically any sort of therapist, I just know how the human mind reacts to certain elements. My step dad is a childrens services counselor, or social worker so a lot of the stuff he knows I know, as well as all of the "counseling" I give online. Go ahead and throw me something if you want to test me on it. I don't know all of the technical terms but I know what to say at the right time to get a person through their grief, I have been considering going to college for this sort of thing, but I don't want to have to do this as a job. I just liek to be ther to help people through their trials and tribulations. A lot of my really bad childhood plays a role in me being able to know what they are going through.

It's great that you are committed to helping people, whether or not you do it as a profession. Boy, those are too tough areas you mention! The emotional strength one needs to be in either children's services or grief counseling is awe-inspiring to me. Autism is tough, but not nearly so emotionally wrenching on a daily basis. My admiration to you (and your step-father), whether you do this as a professional or as a helping friend.

I am sorry to hear about the lousy childhood, but have to tell you that I think it is very admirable that you would use a painful past to help others in the future!

Thank you, most people have no idea what it takes to help a person. I have personally talked at least 2 people that I know of out of suicide by showing them the poetry I had wrote to get myself through that period, as well as helped several people through their divorces and I may have one couple getting everything all worked out. And I'm only 20. lol

You really must learn to be open-minded. For someone who truly cares about the well-being of the animals and are willing to learn as much as possible to ensure this, really is not very open-minded and willing to learn from somebody else's misfortune and failure.

Sorry, you lost me. Referring to name-calling behavior as childish is not open minded? Or did this get posted in the wrong spot?

Confused,
Wendy

FBT's are toxic to other animals...why can't you except that is beyond my comprehension. Would you please tell exactly what you are thinking, mixing the FBT's with also a poisonous dart frog? Despite what others have told you I don't understand why you refuse to listen...and i thought you are on here to learn so not condemn you animals to miserable life, and yet you are willing to let them die. People are mad because they don't want to see the animals suffer and die. If you are a therapist, you know this. Please tell me exactly what you are thinking? Sruely, if you wanted your animals to live you would've listened to them.

Actually she is taking some advice on here Knot, and she is holding off on putting anything together until she knows all of the facts. There are just so many posts to this that you may not be able to find it. but i have read them all, and wrote about 1/3 of them.

Yes, you seem to have missed a number of posts, or maybe misread them. Rather than wade through everything, look, I think, just below this one, at my answer to cheshireycat, which sort of summarizes a whole bunch of responses in one place.

But FYI, there was never a point when I was not willing to listen, and you should not make such assumptions about people. If you are unclear about something I have said, feel free to just ask!

Drake, I understand where you are coming from completely about the way you've been talked to. It is totally inappropriate and, it's true, that that kind of behavior will never be honored or even tolerated in any kind of professional relationship.

I want you to know that I have no bias in what I say and don't want to gang-up on you or anything. But, I also need you to know that I completely disagree with your set-up plan.

If you say something like "Of COURSE people have had problems mixing SOME species, this is why you carefully research prior to doing a community setup, to make sure you are not putting in anything incompatible," then it doesn't make sense that your research includes only taking the advice from the people you agree with. You're only paying attention to what you want to hear, from what it seems. Plenty of people here are telling you otherwise, the specific problems, and there's even a personal account to someone who's lost another reptile to a fire-bellied toad here. There's a reason they're fire-bellied, and they really shouldn't be mixed with other species. I mean, I keep an open mind about these things, and I agree that mixing CAN SOMETIMES be okay if you know all the specifics and get species from the same area, but I wouldn't attempt it yet and your animals come from all over the world. And these people know a lot more than I do and they see it differently. They're not just experienced in herps, either, they're experienced in keeping, raising, and breeding herps, specifically amphibians.

Listen, that is NO reason for anyone to get rude with you. But some people just get emotional when they see a disaster coming and you shouldn't take it personally. Look beyond the way they same something, disregard the few personal attacks, and actually read what some of these people, some actually very polite, are trying to tell you. I've read in at least five books about people who mixed fire-bellied toads and fire-bellied salamanders together, only to find out they're not the same species, duh, and the sals died. Please, understand that everyone's priority here is along the lines of making sure these animals don't die. That is animal cruelty to us, whether it's intended or not, because some of those animals should NEVER be mixed.

When your anole grows, and even your RETF, it's highly likely that they're going to eat the dart frog. Realize that these animals try to eat anything that fits into their mouths, and even some things that don't. In just having my two smallest GTFs next to my largest squirrel, the GTFs attacked the squirrel. They never even touched him, because he saw them coming, but he was 3/4 of their length and girth at the time. The would, by no means, be able to be a meal for them, because he simply would never fit down their throat, and they were all very well fed. That's just their nature.

Anyway, I will not jeopardize the future of these animals by deciding to stoop low and strike out at you, and I wouldn't want to disrespect anyone like that anyway. But, please, reconsider the species you are mixing, and if you MUST mix, select something different.

Also, a 49-gallon isn't at all big enough for all of these animals. You could put a few RETFs in there, a lot of dart frogs, OR some fire-bellied toads. But, please, don't mix those species. And I don't even think that anoles belong in tanks. They're an arboreal species that probably need more air circulation than a frog, even if the frog is also arboreal. And don't dart frogs usually need reasonably cool temps? The opposite of the anoles and RETFs? Please, think about all this, and let me know what you are going to do. I'm worried for the animals, I don't want to upset you. Thanks for reading this if you have, and if someone has told you that mixing these things is alright, I'd love to talk to them and ask them why they'd say it's okay. It's obviously not, but, again, I'm always open for a good discussion. You can always learn from anything.

Thanks so much for such a nice and encouraging message! And please do not think I am ignoring any of the advice of the polite individuals who are trying to help, or even that I have a set idea about what I "want to hear" because that is not the case at all. My initial confusion came from the fact that Dr. H's info seemed at odds with the first couple of people who spoke up about FBT's, so I told them what I had been told, to see how their info differed. Apparantly, some individuals took this as an excuse to engage in some horrible behavior. Guess I was not supposed to try to understand all the conflicting info, the way they saw things!

I know that there are about 1000 posts to wade through at this point, but somewhere here is the one where ellasmommie asked me if I was ignoring the advice of the polite individuals about FBT's, and I assured her that I am absolutely not. NO creature goes into any tank unless I know it is 100% safe, and I would absolutely never ignore warnings from others who care. I think that this reponse got lost somewhere amid all the flaming, another unfortunate of that kind of behavior.

I know I mentioned emailing all the FBT info from others to Dr. H for his response. When I said that I "defer" to him, I did not mean to say that I was asking him to tell me to go ahead and put the FBT's in a community tank, I meant that I was deferring to him to answer why there was a difference in recommendations in the first place. (As it turns out, BTW, there really was not. Being an old-school kind of guy, he wrote out his answer to me longhand and had his secretary type it up. Due to what he refers to as his "deplorable chicken-scratch writing and ridiculous tendency to abbreviate" his secretary interpreted "Fl Bellied Tdl" as Fire Bellied Toad, rather than Flame Bellied Toadlet, which is apparantly an argentine frog that I have not ever seen. In any case, mystery as to big FBT conflict solved! LOL)

Yes, everybody has something different to say on anoles. Dr. H and Kanuck say they have no problems, many others say they do. There is a post above somewhere to ginevive where we were talking about it, and I said I didn't want to risk anybody getting hurt by the anole (and no, NOT due to price, as our resident flamer couldn't resist accusing. Those who actually read the ENTIRE post can see that pretty obviously my first concern was for the animal safety, and that I described dollar and sense thinking as "dispassionate".)

I know I have adressed the tank size issue a bunch of times, but who can find it in all this??? LOL! Anyway, what I said was that the plan has always been for the habitat to grow with the inhabitants as needed, just like we all do with our iguanas, snakes, etc. I just find it easier to learn a new setup style on a 50 gallon before plunging into dealing with the 100 gallon.

Whew, this is getting long! I hope I answered everything, and please tell me if I didn't. I have been lecturing all afternoon, and am beat! Thanks again for your great post, and I'd love to talk anytime. I am always open to a good discussion as well!

Wendy

I resent being called the resident flamer. What is that other than a childish attempt at retaliation? The simple fact, and yes, I did read the post, was that you seemed to place the value of the "70 dollar Dendrobates" over the "5 dollar anolis." Maybe that is just how it appeared, but it sure looked pretty incriminatory(to me). And I have finally read EVERY post so I am up to date. Glad we resolved the FBT conflict. And I apologize if I came off as too much of a(n) "insert word here." Just the fact that I have had mixed tanks before, watched them fail, and watched all the animals die slowly (I was young...didn't know any better). I get pretty upset when others try and don't appear to realize their folly before hand. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Apology accepted, and I thank you. And you are right, "resident flamer" was rude on my part, and I apologize as well.

If you reread that post, I described dollars and sense analysis as dispassionate, and I stated pretty clearly that my first concern was no animal being hurt. Not really "incriminatory", just me rambling as I thought out loud.

Wendy

Sounds good. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Wow, you said it the best. Exactly.
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*~Ginevive~*

What I don't understand is: why do you want to risk hurting or killing the frogs when many experienced keepers and the documents by experienced experts will tell you that it is very bad as a result. Unless, you like to explain what happened to their animals is not the result of mixing species. Just because someone has a doctrate does not mean he has done adiquate researches and has enough experience to be an expert. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

Read above post, I think this answers everything you are asking in one spot, rather than having to dig through 1000 other posts to find where I said it to others.

Ever think about diurnal and nocturnal habits or how aggressive a species is? Anoles are very high strung...they eat a lot and will fight other species for food. A dart frog would most definitely lose out to an anole and possibly become stressed and die. Well, you might say that the crickets you feed the anole are too large for the dart frog. What happens if the dart frog ends up choking on one? It happens...As well what happens if the anole does not eat all of its crickets...The crickets are free to roam and chew on all other herps in the tanks, such as the red eyes which are strictly nocturnal. Are you going to feed at night and day? As well, anoles require almost daily feeding. How is this going to affect the other herps which dont need food every day...how are you going to assure that the anole is the one getting the food and not the FBT (which, BTW, is toxic...can even poison itself with its own toxicity...you should not have to question its toxicity anyway...that red belly is there for a reason...) Just some more things I remembered and see you havnt addressed yet. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

I think that there's a huge difference between a 300g setup and a 55g. It's awesome that you do your research before you go and buy the animals. I sincerely wish that everyone would do the same.
I know how expensive this hobby can be. I just wanted to completely emphasize that firebelly toads cannot be mixed with anything. In past years, I have watched my leopard and bronze frogs convulse and die within hours, because of accidentally licking a fbt during feeding. I would never want anyone to have to go through that.
Once again, I am thrilled to see that you are doing research before buying anything for your 300g tank, which sounds like it will be awesome. Please don't put any firebelly toads in there
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*~Ginevive~*

If you are a novice who are you to be saying anything? You have tried nothing and have no experience. Your opinion means nothing therefore. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Everyones opinion means something. Surfrog, you are welcome any time in my book, and I hope you will pay no attention to those who behave badly.

Cheers!
Wendy

Ok that is like saying that the opinion of someone who has never taken physics trying to debate on the properties of thermodynamics. It has little or no basis. Surfrog has no clue what he/she is talking about as he/she has not tried it. I have, it didn't work, and I ended up with a ruined tank. Best of luck. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

No one is realy debating anymore whether or not the original proposed combination would work (you seem to have missed numerous posts). The point here is the way you address others on this forum, and your tendency to appear out of nowhere, flame those who have never before exchanged a word with you, and then leave without apology. If you want people to listen to your opinions, you may want to try treating them as human when you address them. Your name calling and belittling is way out of line.

Everyone knows me. I have been here for years. I have nothing to lose or care about. I have a reptutation and I will not lose it for saying what everyone else is thinking. And I believe the whole debate was whether it would work or not, or at least that is what this line of the thread was about. And truly, I have missed about half of the "new" threads as I have better things to do than to stop people from making mistakes. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

If you have better things to do, then why get involved in the first place? Why jump in and insult people, only to later say that you have no interest in the conversation? No one suggested you minlessly agree with others, there is not a thread here like that anywhere, as far as I can see. Most people were able to calmly discuss any issues where there was debate or confusion. But there are numerous posts of complaint about the flaming and name calling. Is that really the type of reputation you want to build for yourself with those who don't otherwise know you?

I don't care about my reputation, there are better places anyway. I will say what I want. I interjected in the first place as you were not listening to reason, and people like you give the hobby a bad name. And do not even try to say my "rude" manner (I like to call it a "tell it like it is" attitude, but perhaps it is what some would call "rude"gives the hobby (as well as me) a bad rep. And I resent the "mindlessly" following comment. I say what I say because I mean it and I understand it. You should not have to consult some "doctor," if he really is one in the fist place, on the issue of whether Bombina orientalis has the capability of killing other animals in its environment. That is non-debatable. I would love to e-mail this "doctor" and discuss the basics of anuran care. Please enlighten me as well as the rest of us why you must consult this "doctor" first. Thanks for listening! I appreciate it. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Sigh...first you go on about your reputation, now you say you don't care about it. Then you want to say things about people like me damaging the reputation of the hobby, yet you have no idea who I am, what I am thinking, or what the current conversations on this thread are.

I am not sure what you mean about "having to consult with this doctor"??? He was the person who was kind enough to share his expertise with me when I asked for his assistance at the start. Or are you speaking of when I said I "deferred" to him on FBT toxicity? Well, that was answered something like 20 posts ago, but in the interest of courtesy I will answer again. I was deferring to him to explain why his original recommendation seemed to contradict the experience of so many people here with their FBT's, as I could not speak for him on this. As it turned out (again, stated multiple posts ago) it was a simple matter of a transcription error by his secretary, and it was a different species of frog he had recommended for this particular setup. And I, of course, stated far prior to that that no creature was going into my vivarium until I had all the information. But you missed that one too (I believe you were busy calling me a troll at the time).

Dr. H's credentials were also stated long ago. He is the herpatological curator at one of the largest zoos in the US, and has been for over 40 years. This information was also apparantly missed by you.

As for me not listening to reason, I am not sure how you came to that conclusion any more than any of your others. There was never a point when I would not listen to anyone who offered infomation, which is pretty obvious given the fact that I stayed and answered each post, and did not even consider going beyond the habitat construction until I had as much information as possible, which many people here went out of there way to kindly and courteously share. If you mean that I was not listening to YOU, then you are correct. There are few people on earth who would be willing to listen to anything said by a complete stranger who appears out of nowhere, belittles them and calls them names not often heard in adult conversation, and then claims his actions were perfectly reasonable and justified. "Telling it like it is" can be an admirable quality when it means to simlply be direct and to the point, which can be easily be done in combination with common courtesy. Name calling and flaming are just plain old rude, and not at all admirable.

Why didn't you say that from the begining? It seemed like you had made up your mind about putting them together, and you didn't seem to care much about listening to the advice others had given you? At first, they told you that it's bad in a quite normal and calm way, but then you refused to listen...and he got mad. I don't know why you didn't listen if you are on this forum to get advice from experienced frog keepers. Why did you post this? to get advice...and he told you...you didn't listen...he got mad.

Uh, no, again, you missed a lot of posts. OTHER people told me what they thought, and I was comparing info with them, he appeared out of nowhere and began name calling, not bothering to attempt to say anything politely, and the I let him know his behavior was out of line. Unless you are willing to go through all posts and read the various conversations, it is incorrect for you to assume there was ever a point that I was not listening to anyone. There are a number of posts here where people were politely comparing info, and I assured them that I was absolutely taking it to heart and had no intentions of setting up anything where any creature was at risk. As for "not saying it in the first place", once I had all the info, that is exactly what I did say, and some time ago, to various people throughout this thread.

For you to say that the kind of name calling that went on here is somehow acceptable because somebody "got mad" does not work for me. Adults can feel strongly about something, and even get angry about differences, without resorting to that type of behavior. It is unacceptable in any situation, and there is never a reason for it. Had he done what you are suggesting, and ever attempted to politely share his information as so many others here did, there would not have been a problem. He chose not to do this, and instead to go directly to insults in his very first post to me.

I'm referring Derek Benson...and I recall from reading the post last night he was quite calm in his statement. That was before the name calling.

Derek Benson was polite in his first post, and warned me not to put different species of darts together as they would hybridize. I was polite in my response (I thought) telling him that wasn't a concern for my setup, as I only had one dart. Unfortunately, Derek did misspell it as "hyridize" in his original post, which threw me at first, so I double-checked his meaning, that he had meant to say "hybridize", as I did not want to be answering something he had not even asked. This seemed to offend him, that I needed to check, and below is Dereks reply to me:

"Of course I mean hybridize. Obviously you have done NO research AT ALL. You should know dart species will interbreed. And as for mixing them and them not breeding, you are stupid and ignorant. You would think you would listen to people with experience, but no wait a month or so when you have dead frogs and anoles. Poor frogs..."

I would hardly call this polite, and as it is clearly Derek who began the name calling, I don't know why you would think that you can somehow say the fault lies with me? For replying to Derek that there was only one dart, and therefor no chance of hybridization? For double-checking a misspelling? Making a completely true statemtn and asking for a clarification are hardly offenses that justify being called "stupid and ignorant".

Yeah, but he said it doesn't matter if the different species don't interbreed...and he was angry with you because you wanted to mix species. I think you know what he was saying and know why he was angry.

No, I do not know what was in Derek's head, or attempt to read what anyone might be thinking without bothering to simply ask. I am not sure how it is that you came by the knowledge of what he was thinking either, but I will assume that either you have had a private conversation with him, or that you are him and using an alternate ID. Dereks post regarded hybridization very specifically, and that is what I answered. Likewise, I do not know why you think it would be okay to engage in name calling because you don't agree with someone over something. There are few here who would say that NO species can be mixed ever, and in fact many posts in this very thread where people talk of species that can successfully be housed together. So if it is Derek's personal opinion (or yours), that no species should be housed together ever, fine, you are both entitled to that opinion and to share it with others. But don't think that this in any way excuses the way Derek chose to express this opinion.

Why are you thinking that Darek and I are so devious and he would go to the trouble of creating another identity, me, to try to make you relize that you are wrong? Are you thinking that maybe it was you who should have listened? The statement was quite clear and I understood it...I don't know why you say you didn't.

Knot, I have no idea who you are, what your level of deviousness is, or anything else about you. I am just pretty baffled as to why you would defend the type of name calling that went on there, and which pretty much everyone else who has voiced an opinion has said is absolutely out of line and inexcusable. And why on earth would you think that I would pretend not to understand a questions from Derek, yet understand and willingly answer questions from everybody else?? And what is it you think I should have listened to but didn't?? I listened to and answered Dereks question about hybridization, listened to and answered those who asked about different environmental requirements for the species involved, listened to and immediately followed up on advise from others that the RBT's should not be in the tank, and weighed out all the pro and con arguments and decided against the anole. This is all stated clearly in something like 10 different places in this thread, and summerized for convenience in two more. Now please, tell me, what exactly is this big piece of information that you think I did not listen to?? Or did you just not bother to read any of these posts, but are still feeling you need to argue a point that is no longer even valid? I am trying to be nice and answer all your questions here, but the fact is that the only thing you seem interested in doing is proving to me that Derek had some justifiable reason to hurl names and insults at me, and you are not going to be able to do that. That kind of behavior is just not justifiable.

Look...you need to think about this. I have seen people like you before over the years and most of them failed. If you are as experienced as you say, you would UNDERSTAND mixing doesn't work. If you are not, you deserve to lose all your animals...which will be the result anyway since your failure is imminent...

where is the name calling? I would love for you to point it out in there...Enlighten us! Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Sorry, my error, this one was just flaming. Telling me, or anyone else, that we "deserve" to have all our animals die because you know all about people "like us" is flaming, not name calling. The name calling began later, I believe in the post to Kanuck, which he addressed to me with some very polite questions, and which you decided to answer by saying that I was "lower than a troll."

Hopefully this has sufficiently enlightened you.

Exactly. I do not think you are better than a troll. Anyone that comes to say they are going to do this, despite the large number of issues and exact duplicate threads that could have been read on this EXACT forum, is a troll to me. My opinion. If you do not like it, your loss. What I meant is that if you claim to be as experienced as you are and still try this, you will get what you deserve, a terrarium full of dead or dying animals. I tell it like it is. That is how it is. Like it or not. I did not say that any of your other animals should die or that you keep them incorrectly as well. Just those in the fabled "terrarium of doom!!!!!!!" Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Andy, anybody can read the very first post and know I did not come here to "say I was going to do this", but simply asked for help in how to build a vivarium. When I mentioned the animals from Dr. H's list that I was planning to get, several people spoke up and said that they were incompatible. Apparantly in your mind people are not allowed to come into a forum unless they already know everything there is to know about every aspect of frogs, and must have opinions that match yours exactly, or you will feel you are justified in flaming them. Very strange idea of a forum, particularly one that advises people to "come here and ask your questions or share your experiences". This is a PUBLIC FORUM, and anyone can come here and ask anything they like, and you do not get to control this. And people are not required to read through every previous post on the forum prior to writing a post of their own. I find it pretty ridiculous that in spite of the fact that any debate or question as to conflicting information has long since been resolved with the help of people who were kind enough to share advice and experience with me in an adult manner, you still continue to belittle me and call me names, and want to call that "telling it like it is". To what purpose? Not having to admit that you were rude in the first place? Not having to take an honest look at how you treat people? Well that is your loss, and really does not affect my life one way or another, though it does make a pretty sad statement about you.

I kept reading the thread I was involved with. Read my post above...it contains an apology. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Just read it, and I thank you again. An apology is contained from me as well, as you were right, "resident flamer" was out of line.

Thanks
Wendy

I saw credentials. It didn't matter to me. I would rather talk to the guy. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

If you are truly interested, I can certainly ask him if he would be willing. If you are comfortable posting your email address, I have no problem passing it along to him.

Listen to me I have tried to mix different species, and it has always been a disaster unless those animals were from the same region. Even if the animal is captive bred they have different bacterias that spreasd disease and the frog from one country may be immune to it but the others are not, so they will get sick and die. I have had herps fro 18 almost 19 years now, i do know what I am talking about. I lost a lot of animals in my earlier years due to community tanks because even in same species tank it one animal gets sick they rest follow suit and you lose the whole thing. If you wanted to mix something with anoles, I'm not really condoning this but Green Treefrogs usually work, and other native tree frogs, bue then you still have to be able to provide for all their individual needs while making sure the others aren't slipping. And if those people at those zoos and books are telling you this I think you should check thier credentials and theri actual experience with the stated animals that you wish to mix, because apparently they don't know what they are talking about. This is my last post to your thread, I will not keep telling you how bad it is to mix species liek that.

Thanks, credentials are not a problem, neither is experience with the individuals consulted. Of COURSE people have had problems mixing SOME species, this is why you carefully research prior to doing a community setup, to make sure you are not putting in anything incompatible. This is also why nobody in their right mind would say that you can mix freely, with no worries, or that even doing a same species tank is guaranteed to be without problems.

Thank you, I greatly appreciate you making this your last post, and you deciding not to "keep telling" me.

I am a novice, and I would love to draw upon the knowledge of anyone with 18-19 years experience, and I have also heard to not mix species with the possible exception of them being from the same region. I have heard different as you dispute form zoologists or other professionals with obvious access to very large viquariums. So my question is about specifics of people with expereince in any type of frog care/ownership. How big is your tank? What lengths have you gone to to provide your amphibian with its native environment. Was there ever on option of separating these "sick" frogs when they began showing signs, or the only answer is to watch them die.... come on people, simply stating your years of experience says something, but not much. I think I'll just go to the local state University where there as at least a debate over the absolutes I keep seeing posted in these threads.

Well it's obvious that you have your mind set so so basically all that can be said is Good Luck. But I highly suggest you look up a caresheet for each species. Once everything reaches adult size (if they even survive) your tank will be much to small. The set up alone would be enoug for the two RETFs but adding all the others will create and over crowded enviroment.

All amphibians are toxic, so you could very well have a problem with them poisoning each other. Red Eyes are very carvniverous and will eat anything small enough to fit into it's mouth (IE the Dart Frogs). The anole will bite at just about anything so you can end up with some pretty nasty injuries. The Fire Bellies will more than likely make eveything sick from their toxins.

In 49 gallons there is in no way enough room for them to avoid each other. Eventually they will all have to soak in the water, which the Fire Bellies will be spending most of their time. So Your other frogs will go down to soak, absord the water through their skin and BAM poisoned by the toxins.

The Anoles need a very hot basking area, which in turn will cook your REs and dart frog. (anole basking is around 90*, red eyes shouldn't go much above 80-85, and the dart frogs require MUCH cooler 70-80 max.)

You are going to do what you want so we obviously can't make you see otherwise. If you come to this forum for set up advice, be willing to soak in what everyone is saying.

There are many people here who have kept each of these species and know everything there is to know about their captive care.

Listen and learn... otherwise... good luck.
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

In the end it's your money... if you want to *risk* loosing some if not all then have at it. We are all just rying to help you provide a safe and comfortable enviroment for your new babies.

I do wish you the best of luck with the community set up. Just don't get your hopes up too high.
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Thank you, I appreciate the polite addition to your message.

I won't go into the issues you mention (size, toxicity, care requirements), as they are all addressed in various places in my above posts. (But I do have to ask, do you honestly think I spent the kind of time I have consulting PhD's and do not know what is on each animals CARE SHEET???) I am perfectly "willing to learn", but find it very difficult to see how I can give preference to the advice of private individuals in a forum over several PhD's and expert herpatologists who were not only able to provide great detail about each reptile, but also to show me beautiful setups of their own that had thrived for years, and hard data to back them up. The idea that I should discount that kind of knowledge, which I feel immensly priveleged to have had shared with me, because a few people on a forum insist "the experts are wrong" seems pretty far-fetched to me.

My request for advice was for people who have successfully built the specific type of waterfall/streambed viquarium I am working on, as there are a number of different logistical possibilities for the placement of filters, etc, and I wanted to know what people had found worked best for them. I find it amazing that no one has bothered to answer this question, and instead there has been a barrage of posts from people who insist I trust their knowledge over PhD's with decades of experience and success. It seems that open minds are few and far between here, and that few are willing to think outside their box of comfort. That is very disappointing to me, as it seems that a true "forum" should be about the free and open exchange of ideas, and not the "you don't agree with me therefor I will no longer talk to you" response that seems so prevalant here.

For those who WOULD like to exchange ideas, please feel free to jump into this thread. And I would STILL like to hear from anyone who has constructed the viquarium type I am doing!

I'm not discounting those people's setups, maybe they got lucky, but I really think you should look into what you are putting together. There are 2 toxic species of frogs going into an enclosure with larger frogs thet will attempt to eat them, and then there is the issue of space for these frogs. And you most certainly can't discredit my experience and work with frogs. I'm not totally against mixing species, you just have to di it properly. Tell me what you want to build and what area you want to replicate and I will help you on this. But if someone is trying to tell you that an arrow frog is compatible with anything they obviously are not thinking properly because an arrow frog is a highly territorial frog, which means it needs a lot of space. I'm not against mixing species, I'm against mixing them from different places that should not be mixed. And if you need help with your vivarium just post about it, but don't say that you wanna put all of those frogs in that, because that is not enough room to start with for those particular species, it will only serve to make these people on this forum mad many of whom have been studying these frogs as long as those whom you consulted with a PhD, also an added not a PhD does not equate to total knowledge of all species of frogs. Noone can have that, and it is a fool who thinks he does have all knowledge. And if you wish to email me my email address is joshmilliken2001@yahoo.com. I knwo talking on this forum makes me sound very angry, and I am not. In a long message like this I just try to get across everything I wish to address, then I see your responses.

First, I want to thank you for a friendly and cordial post, it is much appreciated!

Actually, I DID ask for help in my setup, that was my original post! You have to go way back to the top to find it, but I listed exactly what I want to build, and the equipment I have. Yes, I would love to discuss setup with you anytime. You can see my specifics in that first post, or I can email them to you. I would really like to know what people have found works best for ease of cleaning and fewest mistakes when setting up their filtration and waterfalls/streams.

I would certainly not discount anyones experience. I have 20 years of experience with herps myself, and feel I do have valuable knowledge to share, as I am sure you do. However, I would always defer to the experts in the end! I think forums are a wonderfull way for people to come together and discuss their experiences. I just find it very unfortunate that there are people who resort to childish temper tantrums and flaming instead (and I'm not refering to you here. This is directed at individuals like the oh-so-charming "gentleman" above who referred to me as "stupid and ignorant" for not believing that a single dart frog can somhow magically interbreed with itself and "hybridize"! LOL!) And to be told "don't say" certain things because I will "make people mad" if I counter their personal beliefs and experiences is, quite honestly, a sad reflection on this forum indeed! What is the true definition of a forum, if not a place for the free exchange of ideas?

No, you are absolutely right, PhD's do not always equal experience. This is why I was careful to ask advice from such PhD's as the herpatological curator at the zoo, who has 40 years of experience setting up both public and personal habitats of all sizes, and such experts as the Bartletts, who have published numerous herpatological guides and studies, and have decades of personal and professional experience. These individuals were very specific and detailed on who could co-exist with who, and why, and how to set up appropriate eating/drinking/basking areas and temperature gradients for everyone. I did not by any means enter in to this blindly, so the "you should get a care sheet on these animals" comments were a little baffling to me. After all, who does everyone think WRITES the care sheets????

As for the size of my setup, obviously that will grow with the inhabitants! They are all babies now, so it is physically impossible for anyone to swallow anyone else. As inhabitants grown, space will be increased and alternate placements will be made as needed. The same thing applies if any inhabitants should become overly territorial or aggressive. I would have thought this was a given, but since people keep coming back to it, I guess it needs to be stated. After all, how many of us started out 5 inch baby iguana in the walk-in-closet sized habitat it would eventually need?? Habitats ALWAYS grow and change with growth and needs of inhabitants! Does anyone not know this?? (Well, actually, thinking of the horror stories of adult iguanas with flat noses from being crammed into tiny cages, I guess there are actually some people out there who don't!)

In any case, thank you again for your post, and hope to talk with you again to discuss setups!

You now what Ellasmommie? You might be new to this hobby, but in my opinion you know more than some other people ever will!
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*~Ginevive~*

LOL Thank you Gin! That is quite a compliment!! Especially from someone who has been doing this longer than I have.

I spend alot of time reading and absorbing every little bit of information that comes my way. I'm also a good listener, so when others talk about their experiences I listen and take mental notes. If something doesn't sound right to me I'll simply look it up. I couldn't tell you how many hours I have spent researching and reading on all kinds of Amphibians!! I'm one of those people that has to find out every negative aspect and be sure that I don't make the same mistakes. I don't do well with loosing pets, even if it's only been a couple days. I cried for days after I lost 4 of my RETFs in morphing. I thought for sure that it was something that I had done. But after reading from one ond of the internet to the next I finally talked myself down and gave in to the fact that these things happen and nature, at some point, will take it's course. I'll be damned if I'm going to be the cause of my pets death! There for I will read everything available on that species and be sure that I provide all that I can for a happy, healthy animal. (Same applies to my other pets or I wouldn't have a 24 year old cat LOL)I try my best to make sure that no one is over crowded, stressed and is getting all that they need. The only ones in my home that are over crowded are the humans LOL We are quickly being over run by all the amphibians we have now LOL 4 RETF, 2 Christmas Toads (talk about some HARD resreach!!!) 1 BEAUTIFUL Cuban Tree Frog (or at least that's what we think it is. We seem to have found one with a new color morph so it isn't your "average" Cuban), 3 cats and a ferret. Not to mention 1 child (2 years old) and a husband LOL

Sorry, forgot I was logged in over at the Tree Frog forum LOL
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Oh, now it makes more sense! LOL

Hmm, I can't quite seem to picture this waterfall in my head, if I were going for a waterfall type thing I would use the following to do so though(this is stuff I have or can readily obtain): a Maxi-Jet water pump, placed to where it can intake the water and pump it(but hidden somehow out of view)with some flexible tubing to pump the water through attached to the end, and a little cap on the other end of it to spread the water out, you should be able to lift this up behind the rocks and have it pour down on them to create a waterfall effect. This is basically what I am going to do to build a rain chamber so I can breed my horned Frogs. Let me knwo if this is what you have in mind. Keep in mind too that these filters are 2" wide 3" front to back and 4" up and down, so they don't take up too much room.

Yes, the filter/pump combo I ordered is called Microclean 304 Filter and Pump. It's fully submersible, and pretty small, about 5 inches long and 1-2 inches wide. I was thinking maybe this could go at the bottom of the tank, under the plastic grate and substrate, with air tubing running up through the substrate and into the waterfall?? The waterfall would then drain into the stream (all on the land side of the enclosure), which would run back into the "lake" on the water side of the enclosure (hope I am describing this in a way that makes sense!). This way, water from the lake where everybody soaks and messes, would run through the filter prior to going back up through the waterfall, removing toxins before being returned to the lake. This seemed the healthiest to me, though I know frequent water changes will still be a must. I actually have a really cool device for this, back from my saltwater tank days. It has a bulb on the end that you squeeze, and it just sucks the water right out of the tank and into a bucket. Sort of like a really long turkey baster on a hose!

I have heard all different ways on how to make the waterfall and streambed, everything from foam to plastic to actual rocks to quick dry mortar. Any ideas on the best method? Also, I have heard that it is best to slope the glass partition toward the land side, making it gradually drop into the water, the way a shore gradually drops, and to cover it with substrate and rocks attached by epoxy, so it is not too slippery for critters to climb out. Is this what you have seen? Any problems with sharp edges on the glass?

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it!

Well I would use real rocks, and just make sure the edges of the glass are covered for sure. And I see no problem using a safe epoxy to hold the rocks in place. I do wish yoiu would reconsider and put the dart frog in a separate enclosure though.

Real rocks sound more appealing to me as well, glad you said that. How long do you generally boil your rocks to sterilize them?

Not to worry, at any sign of trouble, Mr. Dart Frog will have his OWN habitat immediately!

I have never boiled rocks, but I would let it boil for about 5 or 10 min. And I was planning on baking my tree bark huts lol so I can make sure there is nothing living in them.

Well, glad I am not the only weirdo with tree bark in my oven! LOL My husband was a little confused, he expected to find dinner in there.

I read something about disinfecting wood and bark in a solotion of 10 parts water to one part bleach, but I would worry about the chlorine that would be left behind, so I have just used the oven method. Have you discovered any way of disinfecting that allows any ferns or moss growing on the bark to remain alive? I saw one site that said something about a disinfecting product called Rep-Sol, which accomplishes this, but can't actually find this product, or anyone that has even heard of it.

Nope no clue on if it's even possible to do. And look at how long this thread is there's gotta be about 30 responses on here. LOL

Look...you need to think about this. I have seen people like you before over the years and most of them failed. If you are as experienced as you say, you would UNDERSTAND mixing doesn't work. If you are not, you deserve to lose all your animals...which will be the result anyway since it is your failure is imminent...

Regretfully disgusted,
Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

What a pleasant thing to say. Are you this rude to everyone, or just having some sort of bout of immaturity today? I'll certainly pass along to Dr. Hawthorn at the zoo that those who listen to his 40 years of advice and expertise and doomed to fail, and "deserve" to have all their animals die. (I cannot believe you actually said that. What kind of person are you anyway??? That is incredibly sick.)

Of couse mixing can work. People do it all the time, and very successfully, given that it is done carefully and with appropriate research. Have you never been to a zoo? Or read any of the herpatological research? Or even looked at the successful mix viquariums others display online? To say that anyone with experience "knows that mixing does not work" is ridiculous. Certain species cannot be mixed, of course, but there are many who can. The unknown "people" you speak of likely mixed incompatible species without bothering to research beforehand, which is always a sure method for disaster.

I thought this was a joke at first. I didn't think you can be serious about sacrificing your azureus to this torture. Why dont you set up a nice tropical rainforest 40 gallon, and get more azureus. Mix plants if you want, they go together. Azureus eat much smaller food than the other inhabitants you are puting in there. the big crickets will stress them out. and you are probably getting a froglet, right? that is what most people sell. So it will be eaten by the FBT, since they eat anything that hope in front of them. the anole will probably spread some sort of parasite,and the red eyes will drown in the water section. that is what you can look fwd. to.

I initially thought you must be kidding on this one. You can't truly believe that red eyes will "drown in the water section"?? Red eyes are classifed as by Bartlett "semiaquatic", and are recommended for precisely the type of setup I am describing (Terrarium and Cage Construction and Care by Richard D. Bartlett, et al).

whatever. you read books. people here speak from experience. I know alot of people who's retf have drowned cuz the water was to deep. and about your post earlier, not ever hearing of darts breeding with other species of darts? you are mistaken, it happens. d.auratusXd.azurues, ect. or did your almight zoo dr. idiot tell you that it can't happen. I am not a child, but I love being mean and rude, so keep it coming. You deserve to be mixed with a tiger, and tell me how that goes.

Reread the post. I never said that darts do not interbreed, I said that I personally have never read about it. I had no reason to, since I only have one dart.

Not a child, but you enjoy being childish? Well, sad, but your problem, not mine. Perhaps one day you will be more concerned with growing up and earning the respect of others through adult conduct. It will certainly get you much farther in life.

Mixed with a tiger??? LOL!!! What does that even mean??? You may say that you are not a child, but saying silly, nonsensical things like that does not back up your claim!

mixed with a tiger, means, that i want to see you in the same cage as a tiger, and see how long you last. I mean after all, you both can live in the same environment. and dont give me advice about life. You need to learn how to listen to others. Look at the fuss you started. Don't you get it? what, are you like all mighty experienced one. I can act any way i want. I forgot why I left these crappy forums. well, I am going to go fart and pick my nose. then laugh about it.

God be with you. Sounds like you will be right in your element! LOL!!!!

I am only rude to inconsiderate people...which you are obviously...Someone that took the time to think about regions where they come from, temps, and natural habitat could plainly see that these species should not interact in captivity. But hey, go for it. Let us know how it is working out 5 years down the road. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

If this is your attempt to justify your rude and childish behavior, it has failed. Learn a little class in life. You will get much farther, and perhaps earn respect for what knowledge you possess.

Rude and childish? Ha...ok buddy. When you have been on this board for years and hear all the idiotic mixing attempts before hand and then read how they failed, you can maybe START to appreciate what I am doing. Good luck to you and the impending doom of your tank! Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

P.S. I have no reason to want to justify anything. You are a new person, one with views so skewed from me that I wish to have little to do with you. Have a nice day. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Again, you may want to try actually reading through the current posts prior to posting this stuff. Most moved way beyond the "tank of doom" issue a while back in the group that was wiling to have polite, adult discussions and share information freely.

I was replying to a post that dealt with the issue of the doomed tank. Therefore it applies. What else do you want? For me to leave it blank? Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

No, but if you are not going to bother to read the current posts, but are still feeling the need to chime in, maybe you could follow the lead of other posters and simply ask what the current status is. It's such a long and confusing thread, it is easy for people to miss parts of the conversations. For those who just asked where things stood, as they did not want to wade through all posts, I just typed up a faily long post summarizing things, and have directed those who asked me what was currently happening on how to find it. I mean, answer whatever you like, it is a public forum, but it just looks odd to have you suddenly going off about something that was resolved in current discussions a day or two ago, particularly when you do it in a manner that treats others so badly.

I reply to what was said. I do not have the time to read every thread, nor do I want to take it. I will reply to posts that are directed at me. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

I am telling you, andy is one of the most knowledgible people on this forum, or heck on the whole internet. if you don't listen to him, firebelly-toad-poisoning-of-everything-in-the-tank, among other bad results, is eminent.
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*~Ginevive~*

Well, if Andy is as knowledgable as you say, it is truly unfortunate he cannot or will not express himself in a more polite and adult manner. I doubt many people are going to be willing to listen to someone who makes such rude and sickening remarks. Too bad whatever knowledge he does happen to possess cannot be shared with simple common courtesy.

I did read through your (numerous) posts regarding your concerns on fire bellies. I have emailed Dr. Hawthorn at the zoo about your comments, and will pass along his response for all to see.

How can you possibly set aside all of the personal accounts that others have stated about the Fire Bellies? They are so very toxic and the others don't even have to accidentally lick one, all they have to do is soak in the water and they will be poisoned. We are all only trying to help you keep a healthy collection. It doesn't matter what the Dr's say truthfully. If 10 other people tell me that the toxins from the fire bellies will kill my other amphibians, I would listen and simply give the fire bellies their own enclosure.

Please! For the sake of your collection.... heed the warnings about the FBTs if nothing else.
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Who is setting it aside??? I have already said I have emailed the Dr. with the concerns others have brought up. Of course I am attending to it, I would not still be here if I wasn't. But I have very little patience with flaming and name calling children who cannot even extend the lowest form of simple common courtesy and who are only interested in their own views. I am not referring to you in this statement in any way, but the unbelievable clods who are so pathetic in their mannerism as to refer to people as "stupid" "ignorant" and now "no better than a troll". Nothing a disgusting individual like that has to say about anything is of the remotest interest to me, as they are not worth one nanosecond of my time. I keep trying to imagine a university forum where adults would carry on this way, making such childish, idiotic statements to one another. It is laughable, and anyone in their right mind would be embarrassed to display that type of boorish behavior.

That said, for people like you and others who have been cordial and helpful, I absolutely listen to what you have to say, and not one creature is going into the vivarium until I clear this up.

I am so glad to hear that you are checking everything possible before placing your new babies in the terrarium. I was just so worried about the combination and didn't want you loosing anyone prematurly.

By the way... I haven't been able to find any info yet on building a viquarium type waterfall/stream. But if I do I'll post it (and heck, build one myself LOL)
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Yeah, this waterfall is making me nuts!!!! I have all the equipment, but everybody I find who has a site about building one justs lists the equipment and then says something like "then build your waterfall." Wow, that helps, thanks!!!! LOL

If I hit success, I'll write out the instructions and share with anyone who would like to have them.

BTW, the tank I am using is acrylic, which means that the land/water barrier must be acrylic as well. I can't seal acrylic with the normal sealant made for glass aquariums, but no pet store seems to sell acrylic sealant. I tried the hardware store, and they sold me something called Marine Goop, but I don't want to use this unless I know for sure it won't be toxic. Any experience with acrylic sealants???

Well, basically if it's safe for fish it should be safe for frogs.

Right, but the problem on this one is that I don't know whether the stuff they sold me is even safe for fish, as it does not say anywhere, and it came from a hardware store as opposed to a pet store.

I checked Bob Fenner's site, and he says that the silicone sealant used on glass tanks should actually be fine for this particular situation (as opposed to the guy at the pet store, who swore that silicone would not stick to acrylic), and All Glass Aquarium's website indicates it should work as well. I may go with that, since at least I know for sure it is fish safe....

Make sure the sealent says it's non=toxic as well.

I picked mine up at Home Depot, it's just called Aquarium Sealant (it's made by DAP). I used it to affix a plexi devider in a glass tank and it worked perfectly. All you have to do is let it sit for 24-48 hours to allow it to cure. I think the tube cost me less than $5.
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Excellent! I'll swing by there on my way out, thanks!

I am lecturing out of town this afternoon, but I'll try it tonight and let you know how it works.

Think I'm getting closer on the waterfall dilemma..........

Andy's right,hes one of the smartest people on this entire forum,i learned a whole lot from this guy.

I just wated to show everyone how redundant this is getting this post makes this topic up to 70 posts. Unless I miscounted, theres so many posts to this one.

I must tell you that firebelly toads can not be mixed successfully with other species. they are very toxic even to touch, let alone eat (my boyfriend found that out the hard way; touched a fbt, rubbed his eye, and the whole eye swelled up and reddened for the whole day.) also the anoles will nibble at the toads, anhd i give them a few hours before they're dead.
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*~Ginevive~*

I think all the bases have been covered, but I would like to add one more.....I have honestly never kept a mixed set up. I have never kept darts (yet) I had anoles when I was a kid. I do however have fbts and retf (and some other odd and end frogs and toads) You may also want to consider feeding patterns with all these species. My red eyes are slow "stalkers" My fbts lunge immediately as soon as dinner is dropped in and eat until everythings been eatten. I know anoles are fairly quick to eat also. Soooooooo, you might be asking, "yeah, whats your point?"
I guess I would reply that I dont even really know. lol Maybe I should just grab some popcorn and keep reading..............

LOL! Actually, it's a good point! If somebody is hogging all the food, it could be bad for the slow eaters. Some of the critters are already here, in their individual quarantine tanks. The anole is proving to be a pretty slow eater so far, but the FBT's are hogs, cramming crickets into their mouths as fast as I drop them in. If red eyes are slow as well, they might not get enough. Ah, those FBT's are looking worse all the time...

Yes I had some Firebellied toads and I do mean had becuase I have 1 out of 4 left, here's what happened to them 1st to die, he escaped somehow and dried up, found his carcass a week later, 2nd to die toxin buildup, I cleaned the aquarium 2 days late, 3rd to die toxin buildup, I didn't clean the aquarium quick enough that time either. I have been a lot more careful with my animals since them, now I have them on a strict cleaning schedule, and also check every other day on water quality, I just switched the tanks over to terreriums the other day, before they were water with rocks sticking up for land with a aquarium filter that was made to pump 20 gallons in a 10 gallon with only 4 gallons of water. So at least learn from my experince with them.

Well I know you are new to amphibians and if you get this book it will help you immensly, it shouldn't be hard to find and it's very well written. "Frogs, Toads, and Treefrogs" A Complete pet Owner's Manual by R.D.Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett. It covers nearly everything about these frogs, and I have found it very helpful myself. It should help you along your way to a healthy long lived collection of frogs. I know how to take care of a lot of these frogs, but being able to see that it is the same thing that two of the most renowned herpetological expertrs in the world confirm this is a great assett. Hope you enjoy the book if you read it.

I have that one, and you are right, it's excellent! Also have Bartlett's "Red-Eyed Treefrogs and Other Leaf Frogs", and "Terrarium and Cage Construction and Care", which I love. Just wish he would have included instructions for building the @#$%$ waterfall!!!

Good to hear you have a good book on your side with your frogs.

Could you please state which frogs are going together as you see it now and which are not? If you do it should stop some of the flaming as you put it.

Good idea, though there does appear to be only one flamer left! LOL

Lets see, to summarize the last 50 posts or so , at the moment, the only positives for the terrarium are the baby RETF's and the red banded frog. The FBT's obviously went out the door long ago, and I have decided I am not willing to risk the anole, as reports of success vs. failure there seem to be running about 50-50. I am still up in the air and trying to gather info on the azureus. None of the others would be big enough to bother it at this time, and they generally inhabit different areas of the setup. All would be eating pinhead crickets at this point, and temperature and humidity gradients are present to satisy all recommended environmental requirements.

I don't believe it could not be a permanent community, as the RETF's will eventually not be compatible size-wise with the smaller guys. But by then, I plan to have a larger RETF viquarium built anyway (once I have mastered the construction of the %$#@& waterfall!!! LOL) Don't know on the azureus, but would welcome input from those of you who have been so kind and politely helpful so far!

My only question on the FBT's at this point is whether to keep them at all. I originally though I would, as I do like them a lot, but, amazinglyricist, you got me worried with your overdue water change story, and now I am wondeing if I should return them and think about FBT owning at a later date, when I am not so tied up with constructing the new viquarium. And Mr. Anole (that is actually his new name! LOL) already has plans to go to my nephew, who has just built a large vivarium for aboreal species for his science class (he want to be a herpatologist someday. He is 16 now), and decided that a baby green anole would be a good inhabitant for his setup. As I happened to have one, I offered it to him.

Good idea to get this posted in one spot, this thread is sooooooo long. thanks!

Wendy

ellasmommie, the sealent you recommended worked great, thanks!

Wendy

YAY! Good deal, glad that I could help!
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Heather

Chilean Christmas Toad
(B.Varigatus)

Ok now I see everything lol, was too much clutter before. Ok if you still want to keep the Fire-bellied Toads, you can set them up in a 10 gallon aquarium. Glass is better than plastic becuase the toxins soak into the plastic.

Hmmmm... I do have a glass 10 gallon handy, and it already has all the equipment I would need....they are just so darn CUTE, I want to keep them!

geeze i go camping for a few days and this is what i miss! any ways, as i set here for the last hour and read through only half of the posts (geeze this has to go in the record books) i got tired. basically the same facts being stated over and over. i only got to the part where you (drake) was talking about your profesion as a shrink (theropist).

i have gotten to understand derek benson a little bit, how ever rude he might appear to be, he is correct. i have yet to know him not to be correct. the fact is fbt are poisonous. and if i would ever attempt a community tank i would not pick them as inhabitants. i think you said in a former post fbt need extreme humidity. actully they do find between 60-60% humidity. but i think they could tolerate 100% since they are aquatic but i dont know.

any ways, you said to ask you a quesition any time so here it is. i think every one except one person has said mixing is very dangerous to all animals envovled. and here is my question; What have you learned from all of these posts that you will apply to your community tank?

aj

and sorry for the typos
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Click Here to See My Dart Tank In The Making UPDATED 6.15.03 SPOILER! Still Needs Moss View At Your Own Risk

I don't have time to retype all the current info at the moment, but I think I can at least help you find it pretty quickly. If you look just above your post here, at the question from amazinglyricist titled "current setup", and my response to him, you will see what the current status of my setup plan is without having to wade through the second half of the threads. If you want to know more specifically about the FBT toxicity thing as relates to Dr. H, look back at just after where you stopped reading, when the posts move waaaayyyyy over to the right side of your screen, for my answer to the post from cheshireycat (it's her only post, so it should hopefully be easy to find).

As for Derek, the issue there was never whether or not FBT's were toxic (his initial post did not even address that in the first place. he posted regarding dart frog hybridization), but his flaming and name calling during posting, which was out of line.

Hope this answers your questions. If you can't find the posts I mention, let me know, and I will see if I can cut and paste them into a new spot for you. If you could post any new questions at either the bottom of the thread, like you did this one, or in a totally new thread at the top of the page, that would be really helpful, as I have two computers, and it gets difficult to spot all the new posts when switching back and forth.

Thanks,
Wendy

Wendy