Reptile & Amphibian Forums

... at this year's ETHS show. Obviously this is the wrong time of year for hatchlings, but there were no yearlings, no adults, not even a wild caught from this seasons gray band hunt. There were, however, plenty of cornsnakes.

I was at the show and was also looking for subocs, pardon my ignorance but when is the best time to look for hatchlings. Like you said there were alot of cornsnakes and turtles/tortoises. I did pick up a nice orange thayeri from John Cherry though, so the show wasn't a total loss for me.

Subocs breed late in the season (I've heard as late as August or September), so the best time for hatchlings is usually at spring shows or online in the fall. In years past, you could find some yearlings at the ETHS show, but for the last three years there has been nothing (except for the little female I got from Don Soderberg last year, but I had to camp outside the door of the expo for two hours to get first crack at it!).
I was talking with John Cherry, and he said that he doesn't breed subocs anymore because they don't do well in the humidity down here. That is without a doubt the biggest obstacle to successful suboc keeping, so I wonder if the other breeders feel the same way.
Cheers!

Nat Turner told me that he kept and bred subocs here in the Houston climate without any problems whatsoever. I myself saw several of his yearlings at the spring '02 show.
I also have 1 adult and 2 young adults that are doing awesome. I had to start off offering one of mine water once or twice a week, but now he is well tolerant of water (as long as his tank is well ventilated and kept warm enough) and the humidity that comes along with it.
They definitely do not, however, do well in sweater boxes without good ventilation. I have an adult female in a large sweater box with two 12x12 screen windows on the top. That seems to work out wonderfully with this species.

That was great you got to meet John Cherry. Would like to meet him in person myself, but Texas is just a bit too far for me LOL. I have a couple of snakes from John. He's one of the best in the business as far as I'm concerned
As far as Subocs, I've been to a couple of shows this year and seen very few, if any at all. What few are at the show get snatched up pretty quick.
I've always wondered about Trans Pecos and Bairdi Ratsnakes living in simular range & habitat, on why Subocs are much more sensitive to humidity. Anyone have any imput on that? Are there main differences on habitat with Bairdi & Trans Peco Rats?

Steve

np
-----
The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

Battling ignorance one stupid person at a time.

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat(Lola)
1.0 Neonate Black Rat (het for Lic Stk's) (Frankie)
1.1 Texas Bairds (Jose and Rosa)

My posts are my opinion only. What you end up doing is your own choice. I will not be held liable for any negative outcome of my advice. (However I will never intentionally give bad advice. My advice is ALWAYS geared towards a positive outcome.)

Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

I think that's Bogertophis subocularis, Jimmy..hahah.

When I wrote that and then looked at it, I thought.."That just doesn't seem right"
Too late then and I couldn't remember the right name.
At least I did get the Trans Pecos right...LOL
Thanks for pointing that out.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

>>That was great you got to meet John Cherry. Would like to meet him in person myself, but Texas is just a bit too far for me LOL. I have a couple of snakes from John. He's one of the best in the business as far as I'm concerned
>>As far as Subocs, I've been to a couple of shows this year and seen very few, if any at all. What few are at the show get snatched up pretty quick.
>> I've always wondered about Trans Pecos and Bairdi Ratsnakes living in simular range & habitat, on why Subocs are much more sensitive to humidity. Anyone have any imput on that? Are there main differences on habitat with Bairdi & Trans Peco Rats?
>>
>>Steve

Steve,

Sorry about that first post. I accidentally hit the post button..duhhh!

I assume you are inviting speculation here. Let me just say that microhabitats are important, as well as activity periods. For instance, Baird's rats may be more active during humid or rainy times and in more moist microhabitats, like wooded ravines, etc. I might also add that evolutionary history is important as far as where they're coming from. Bairdi seems to be evolved from the obsoleta complex, and as such is allied more to the humid east. Subocularis is allied with the Baja rat, B. rosaliae, I think. They are evolved desert forms, adapted to more xeric habitats.

If you look closely at the range maps, you can also see that subocularis ranges farther into Mexico with a wider range than bairdi which ranges a little further east with a very limited range.

That said, I don't keep either form, but have had bairdi before. I'm just speculating here. Hope it puts you on the right track.

Terry

>> I've always wondered about Trans Pecos and Bairdi Ratsnakes living in simular range & habitat, on why Subocs are much more sensitive to humidity. Anyone have any imput on that? Are there main differences on habitat with Bairdi & Trans Peco Rats?

Although their ranges do overlap in part, you really don't find them in exactly the same habitat. Bairdi are snakes of more wooded hillsides and therefore they occur further east than bogeys and in the areas where the two occur together they tend to occupy the more wooded, mesic areas. Bogeys on the other hand will occupy the dry desert flats and treeless, rocky hillsides where bairdi aren't common.

You can really see the difference in the areas where they don't overlap. In central TX, bairdi occur on wooded rocky hillsides, typically covered with junipers and small oaks, often along waterways. Bogeys don't occur here.

In west TX, where Bogeys are the dominant ratsnake, you don't find trees except in the higher, more mesic mountains. Therefore bogeys are common, bairdii are localized. North and west of the Davis mts, there are only bogeys, and few trees.

There are a few areas where the two species can be found on the same rockcuts, for example, but those cuts are usually in areas where one side has a more trees and shrubs and the other is more open and drier.

You also find bairdi out in the rain with some frequency. You don't find bogeys out in the rain very often.

-----
Chris Harrison

Thanks Terry & Chris on your comments That did shed some light on Bairdi vs Trans Peco habitat. My mind set was that they lived in identical terrain, when in fact it is often quite different. Both are wonderful ratsnakes no doubt.

Steve

It just seems that Elaphe (or Pantherophis) no matter what climate--like bairdi, seems to be more tolerant of humidity than Bogertophis.

The "other" Bogertophis, the Baja rat snake, is also extremely sensitive to higher humidity levels.

It's also interesting to note that Senticolis, a snake that feels delicate in your hands like a suboc, is also susceptible to illness if humidity is too high. Pretty wierd, huh? Who knows why exactly?

Dusty Rhoads

I have a few CB 03 subocs and on several occasions I have found them completely submerged in their water cup for hours on end (head obviously out of water). One actually stayed submerged for 24 hours. I find this interesting behavior because I have heard so much about subocs not liking water at all. I have never observed this in my adult subocs. All snakes are completely healthy and have been since day one. Also, there does not seem to be any correlation with sheding as one might expect. Any one else have similar experiences?

Also, just out of curiosity, do blonde phase subocs populations actually exist in the wild? Or is the blonde phase just a freak genetic trait like albinism that occurs occasionaly in any population? Thanks!

More then likely the temperatures are too hot. I've found that my subocs like it pretty cool, like around 70- 75 with a gradient of about 85.
As far as the blondes, it is a genetic trait like albinism. It originates from stock found in the lower regions of the Pecos river, where the ground color for subocs is much lighter then it is further west within their range. In fact, it seems that the further west you go, the darker they get. There are some other guys on this forum who are true experts on this sort of thing. Hopefully one of htem has something to add.
Cheers!