Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone hear what the snake was that killed the Ohio woman?

Yes, the snake was identified by Cincinnati Zoo personnel as an Urutu. Very sad incident. The woman, who hasn't been officially identified yet, was in her early 40's and kept both venomous and non venomous species of snakes.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Very unfortunate incident. I wish there was a little bit more to the story, like as to what had happened (not the media's rendition either). What little I had read made it seem like she had very little time, I wonder if she was bitten IV.

she was bitten Monday and passed on Saturday. So I'm now thinking IV may not have been the case, then again you never know.

CABLE NETWORK NEWS (Atlanta, Georgia) 13 September 04 Woman killed by viper among her exotic pets
Cincinnati, Ohio (AP): Zookeepers helped police search for venomous and exotic pets in a house where a woman was fatally bitten by a viper.
Alexandria Hall, 44, was bitten in her home Monday and died at a hospital Saturday, police said.
Neighbors knew she had pets, including rabbits and birds, but were unaware of her collection of at least nine poisonous snakes and more than one dozen other snakes, lizards and alligators until police went to the suburban North College Hill house.
Police believe an urutu pit viper bit the woman Monday, and neighbors said she drove herself to a hospital. She was transferred to University Hospital, where she remained in critical condition until her death Saturday evening.
"We have no idea how she made it to the hospital in the first place," said North College Hill police Sgt. Robert Kidd.
Reptile specialists from Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Gardens searched the house with an ambulance waiting outside in case a venomous snake attacked.
They found more than a half-dozen large lizards running around an upstairs bedroom. The venomous snakes were in secure plastic cases throughout the house, police and zoo officials said. Non-venomous animals were found under boxes and piles of clothes.

{Wes Note: Sorry about the tardiness with this ... Fallujah blew up again and life is not quite my own right now}
Woman killed by viper among her exotic pets

THE POST (Cincinnati, Ohio) 13 September 04 Woman bitten by pet viper dies
North College Hill police enlisted the help of Cincinnati zookeepers Saturday to retrieve 23 reptiles, including 10 venomous snakes, from the home of a woman who died after being bitten by her pet viper.
Alexandria N. Hall, 44, was bitten by her Urutu pit viper on or about Sept. 6 while she was cleaning its cage, police said. She died Saturday at University Hospital.
Hall initially was treated at Mercy Hospital Fairfield and later was transferred to University Hospital, police said. Police could not say if she was bitten on Sept. 6.
Three herpetologists from the Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden accompanied North College Hill police into the home at 1830 Emerson Ave. to help secure and remove the reptiles.
When police forced their way into the home, they found several large lizards, who had apparently escaped from cages, wandering throughout the house, said Winston Card, the zoo's conservation program manager for reptiles, amphibians and aquatics.
The venomous snakes, fortunately, were secured in plastic cages throughout the house.
Card said it took nearly three hours to comb the house for the animals. Among the reptiles found was a western diamondback rattlesnake, which is one of the deadliest snakes in the world, along with a viper hybrid, two cobras, six lizards and two alligators.
"She was extremely obsessed with her animals," Card said. "It wasn't as if this woman was abusing these animals. She was taking very good care of them."
Still, Card said, it is no excuse for keeping deadly reptiles in a suburban home, endangering the lives of neighbors, strangers and the emergency personnel who had to enter the home.
"Your dogs may bite you, but it's probably not going to kill you," he said. "Venomous snakes, on the other hand -- there's a possibility you aren't going to survive it."
According to the non-profit national animal advocacy group, Animal Protection Institute, based in California, more than 7,000 venomous snakebites are reported annually in the United States, 15 of which result in death. It is not known how many of these incidents were the result of keeping the snakes as pets.
The recovered reptiles are being held at the zoo and will be examined in the next few days. After a 90-day quarantine, they will either be placed with other zoos in the country or remain at the Cincinnati Zoo.
Card said placing the creatures could be difficult because none of them are particularly rare.
He said putting them back into their natural habitats is not an option because it appears that most of them were born in captivity and therefore would not survive in the wild.
While many cities, including North College Hill, have ordinances against keeping dangerous animals, Card said it is common.
The Animal Protection Institute reports, for example, that between 6,000 and 7,000 tigers are privately and illegally owned in the United States.
"You put your neighbors at risk," he said. "These things are not pets."
A house of snakes
Of the 23 reptiles found Saturday in the North College Hill home of Alexandria N. Hall, 10 were venomous:
• Shield-nosed cobra;
• Monacle cobra;
• Western diamondback rattlesnake;
• Two Urutu pit vipers;
• Rhino viper;
• Gaboon viper
• Rhino viper/gaboon viper hybrid;
• Canebrake rattlesnake.
The 13 non-venomous reptiles found in the home were:
• Two western hognosed snakes;
• Rhino iguana;
• Green iguana;
• Solomon Islands skink;
• Two spectacled caimans;
• Two black and white tegu lizards;
• Red tegu lizard;
• Two savannah monitor lizards;
• Black throat monitor lizard.
Woman bitten by pet viper dies

Maybe the private venomous keepers should start talking about all the stupid zoo keepers, like the zoo in NM who a friend of mine sold a beautiful adult male King cobra to, and not long after they had it the zoo's keeper was bit & killed by the animal, and of course it was destroyed.

Maybe the zoo who had to kill an 8' King cobra, because they could not control the animal, and get it back in its cage after it escaped.

Shew!!!! Experts, I tell you what. Go get um BOYS!!! I wish to be an expert zoo keeper someday....LOL

Flame away people, I'll enjoy reading it.
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Chad Bachman

but I know where you're coming from. I've met most of the keepers at Cincinnati, and know very well that their personal opinions are not against private individuals keeping hot snakes; they've even bought snakes from me (other Bothrops in fact). I am getting the sense, that they have to give a "diplomatic" answer because of their positions within the zoo, but readily acknowledge that there are many qualified skilled keepers in the private sector.

It's just unfortunate, that one hobbyist made a mistake and paid the ultimate price. We all just have to be that much more careful and look out for one another. I wouldn't say I agree with the zookeepers, but reading posts over the years and meeting various keepers on the forums, and getting a sense of who keeps what, its not difficult to tell who's qualified and who's not and then again, those that have no business whatso ever owning venomous snakes. Even you Chadm I haven't met you in person, but I've read enough posts of yours and from others to know that you're a very skilled, experienced keeper. At the same time, I've read posts from others, who I wouldn't want within 10 feet of me if I were bagging a difficult snake(cobra, lancehead, etc).

Some zookeepers, may have an attitude, but its not all of them and in this case, I think they had to put on their "AZA faces" for the interview. I got an email from one keeper that all of the snakes were very well fed and in good physical condition.

MH
www.matabuey.com

I know a few curators that are not against us "private" keepers, but it seems alot are, and they make mistakes (sometimes fatal) just like anybody else can. I know alot of their complaints come from AV issues, and rightfully so, but if we all kept our own AV stock, they would certainly be pressing other issues against private keepers. It seems like a lose-lose situation with "most" zoo curators, who were once private hot keepers themselves. Sorry, I had to vent, and thanks for a reasonable reply without the flamming.
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Chad Bachman

n/m

we keep many species of venomous snakes at my wildlife museum (native and non native). I am also a private hobbyist who enjoys having his own collection and would hate to see individual rights banned in keeping herps (including venomous). There must be a process, however, that will weed out those who really shouldn't be keeping them. Like another post said, there are some wonderfully talented private keepers that I would hire in a heart beat...and...there are some (perhaps many) on this forum that truly scare the dickens out of me in knowing that they keep venomous species (and in close proximity to the general public). I for one would have some very serious problems having some of these folks as next door neighbors. Perhaps that seems a bit hypocritical but based on comments I have heard, these people shouldn't own a garter snake much less a venomous snake. But does that make all private keeper bad? Of course not. Like everything, you have a few bad apples that seem to get the most attention. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that someone died from getting bit by t heir "pet" venomous snake (who seemed to be a knowledgeable person) showing once again, the extreme risks one takes when working with these animals; doesn't matter if you are zookeeper or private hobbyist (there are equally qualified people in both sectors). Some regulation must exist though in order to allow the responsible people to continue enjoying their hobby.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

Anyone who would be DUMB enough to have large lizards and snakes running loose in their house was asking for disaster.

The article does not say how she was bit, or how large the Urutu was. Was it an escape? I know from experience, that such things as large iquanas have the strength to shift or even knock over a 10-20 gal size cage (I saw one do it at a friend's house).

I'm left to wonder if that happened, or was she distracted by a loose pet while doing maintenance on the rattler?......would be interesting if we found out just how it happened. For all we know, she was bitten as I theorise and returned the urutu to it's cage before she went to the hospital.

In any case, it was not a setup that reflected much sense and she likely paid the price for it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Rob:

I agree there must be some sort of basic qualifications in place like in Florida. The breeders/dealers are part to blame too. I've witnessed a transaction at on of the Hamburg, PA shows when a young man had to ask a dealer about the difference between the bite of the two snakes he was considering purchasing: One was a Waglers Pit Viper and the other was a neonate E. Green Mamba!! I stuck my nose in and councled the person not to buy anything because of the lack of basic knowledge. He bought the Waglers. This is not the only case of sales to neophytes I've seen. $$'s are the bottom line in most instances.

Best,

Al

>>we keep many species of venomous snakes at my wildlife museum (native and non native). I am also a private hobbyist who enjoys having his own collection and would hate to see individual rights banned in keeping herps (including venomous). There must be a process, however, that will weed out those who really shouldn't be keeping them. Like another post said, there are some wonderfully talented private keepers that I would hire in a heart beat...and...there are some (perhaps many) on this forum that truly scare the dickens out of me in knowing that they keep venomous species (and in close proximity to the general public). I for one would have some very serious problems having some of these folks as next door neighbors. Perhaps that seems a bit hypocritical but based on comments I have heard, these people shouldn't own a garter snake much less a venomous snake. But does that make all private keeper bad? Of course not. Like everything, you have a few bad apples that seem to get the most attention. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that someone died from getting bit by t heir "pet" venomous snake (who seemed to be a knowledgeable person) showing once again, the extreme risks one takes when working with these animals; doesn't matter if you are zookeeper or private hobbyist (there are equally qualified people in both sectors). Some regulation must exist though in order to allow the responsible people to continue enjoying their hobby.
>>
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center
>>Lake Forest, IL

I agree with Mr. Harris. As an ex-keeper(AZA) I know how it goes. I interned at one zoo that would not hire me full time because I kept hots at home. It was their policy, no if's and's or but's about it(I don't like the herp keepers there anyway). Another zoo, the one that I worked for, hired me because of my experience with private hots. ALL of the keepers there kept or use to keep hots at home.

But I was told by my curator that the policy was to look down on the private industry to avoid liability due to endorsement. He also said if we were bitten at home to not reveal our affiliation with the zoo.

Mr. Harris said it very well, some have a big head and others secretly repect the private keepers.

AV it one big reason for negative resposes, I remember having to go get AV at 4am for some dummy bitten by an atrox. That was one day when I did not even support my own private keeping..lol.

The only thing I have to say in defense of zookeepers is that they USUALLY have to be trainned, experienced, and educated to get and keep their jobs. In the private industry it depends on the state or local laws as to how qualified private keepers have to be in order to keep hots. I some places I've see people keep hots that don't even know what a hook is or the name of their snake. And in others there are people that must exhibit extreme expertise to keep their animals. But in a truly unregulated hobby, you are only as strong as your weakest link and in our case the dummies seem to be more abundant than the good guys.

I've been at hot shows where people ask for the deadlist snake and then buy it, and then, turn around and ask,"what kinda snake is this again?" and then I almost fell to the floor when they said,"if I pick it up will it bite or is it tame?" It's those type of people who should be looked down on but they are classified as private keepers just like good ones. If we design a hobby wide standard for keeping and selling hots with memberships and requirements and keep all sales to those who are card holding members, some respect might be gained. Who knows?

Anyway just venting.

T.C.

I agree as well Chad. Most zookeepers have less knowledge of the species they are in charge of than the average venomous hobbyist...I thought it was hilarious how the zookeepers said she took care of her snakes well but that she shouldn't have endangered her neighbors like that! She was bitten and at least she could keep her animal in its enclosure.

If a tornado ripped thru a zoo, they to would be endangering the public with their animals. It goes both ways I think. I really expected everybody to flame me, but ya'll been very nice. Thanks!
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Chad Bachman

She endangered others by using their antiserum. Escape was not the only thing that the zookeepers were talking about. As far as knowledge the keepers at Cin. zoo are some of the best . Winston Card has been around for awhile and is well respected. Not all private keepers are bad but neither are all zoo keepers.Most are under paid and work with the animals because they love it.

Jim Harrison

I live in NM and would really be interested to know who it was that aquired the king and ended up destroying it. That is really sad...if an African elephant bull charged and trampled a keeper to death, would they destroy it too? Obviously the keeper was bitten due to his own negligence, and the zoo should have relocated the animal to an facility that could properly care for it. Please let me know what zoo this was if you can, I'd really be interested to know.

I think it was Albuquerque. It was a long time ago (14-16 years give or take a few).
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Chad Bachman

I am very interested in the facts of the king bite. Dr. Minton published a paper before his death of all exotic bites recorded in zoos. That bite was not listed. The only fatal bite recorded at an AZA zoo was in the 50's in Utah from a puff adder bite.
Not all zoo people are idiots just as not all private individuals are. But freehandling (ego) and not maintaining AV is going to bring the hobby to an end. It was illegal to maintain venomous reptiles in the area the victim lived because of other incidences involving venomous reptiles.

Jim Harrison

I will try to find out. I wont see the guy who sold the King to the zoo until Oct, but I'll try to get more info.

Is it possible that all zoos not report envenomations/fatalities, or are they required to?

Thanks
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Chad Bachman

Do you know if specific Naja atra AV will neutralize a bite from a Naja kaouthia? I ask because alot of people are buying Naja kaouthia & mistaking them for Naja atra because of their aberrant hood markings & colors. I worry, because if a doctor did not know that he can use South African polyvalent, and treated a N. kaouthia bite with specific N. atra AV, is it going to work?

Thanks again,
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Chad Bachman

Reference bites in zoos for workers comp and safety laws all bites are required to be reported. CDC does not require reporting of native or exotic bites at this time.
SAVP (use to be SAIMR) works on atra and kaouthia. Atra AV does not appear to work on kaouthia. And Kaouthia AV does not appear to work on atra. Venoms appear to be very different in profiles.

Jim Harrison

Thats what I was thinking, just wanted to make sure.

Thankyou.
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Chad Bachman

I have never heard of a US zoo having anyone bitten by a King. Not saying it isnt possible but I'd be very surprised. (By zoo I mean public institution, not venom facility or private snake park) Unless we can find some firm data this sounds like gossip/urban legend to me.

On the same subject the vast majority of zoo reptile people are extremly professional and capable. You cant work around a large collection of animals every day, 40 hours a week, and get by with sloppy technique. Its a lot different than someone having a cobra in his bedroom that he cleans whenever he feels like it. Plus, even if an individual keeper isnt a crash hot snake handler the institution itself helps by maintaining safe workshop protocols. They very rarely pin, they dont freehand and they dont wave snakes around like Steve Irwin. So they dont get bit that often. When they do its usually a result of accidently making a serious mistake (that was mine...) or in the course of having to do something other than routine maintainance (like medicating or shedding or some such)

Some zoo people have no use for private keepers simply cause they dont believe that private fanciers are capable of maintaining exotics but most of the ones I know are willing to respect those whom are worthy of respect and who maintain a professional standard of animal care and safety. Unfortunatly, every time we read about someone doing something stupid with a snake that respect erodes a bit more. There are a LOT of odd people who are unfortunatly attracted to venomous snakes.

Peter Lindsey
former zoo person now private collector
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Peter and Sara
Beouf River Reptiles

I will find out in Oct if this is true or not, until then, I don't know.

I know quite a few private hot keepers that have collections much larger than most zoos, and have to clean more than one cobra every couple of days. Alot of serious keepers have a seperate escape proof room dedicated for their hots, and also follow strict protocols (just like the zoo). All people on these forums ever seem to hear about are the mistakes made by the private sector. WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF MISTAKES no if, ands, or buts..
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Chad Bachman

Which is just about the point, more or less, the responsible collectors arn't the ones making the news when they get bit, at least not vary often. I would wager that if we looked carefully at all of the bites inflicted by captive snakes (at least since "The Crocodile Hunter" made it's debut) we would quickly find that a large majority of them were sufferred by what might be termed "pseudo collectors" That is either the guy with the snake in a blanket box in his bedroom mentioned earlier and frequently seen on "Venom ER" or else one of the folks who feel called to be "more at home with cobras" (if you remember "the Keeper and the Kept" Perhaps cause the really serious collectors are a lot thinner on the ground but I imagine its more likely that their mistake quotient is also a lot lower.

I have nothing against private hot keepers as I am one myself but I am sick and tired of seeing stories about idiots getting bitten and than being portrayed as representative of the cream of the crop.

Perhaps someone who is more current than me on current snakebite trends might comment?

be safe
Peter
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Peter and Sara
Beouf River Reptiles

Fair enough. Remember, most newspaper articles make things seem worse than they really are. I just get upset at all this, because most of the private keepers I know are as qualified as anybody to keep hots.

Off subject:

They used my name in a newspaper article after a bite, and never asked permission to do so. I would have told them to go F themselves again, so maybe thats why they just went ahead and did it without my approval. Luckily the article was not too far off, but it was not 100% correct either. What I'm getting at, is newspapers suk for accurate info..LOL.
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Chad Bachman

Mr Bachman makes some extremely relevant points here, and while I’m not a hot-keeper (I don’t think toxic newts that hibernate in a fridge can be considered ‘hot’), I think that I might be able to contribute something here. I just did an impromptu cull of press items involving bites back to 1996 (I've got about 12,800 pages of this herp press stuff [not just hots], so I've only managed to cull a small percentage of what's in the can) ... and this is what I've found out.
1. As you all know, sensationalism sells! Poison (poison!!??), Venom and Snakes are all highly charged and emotive words ... and look great in a headline. Right off the bat hot keepers are behind the P.R. 8-ball because papers get to use three 'bad' words in their opening line (bite, poison/venom/, snake)
2. Regardless of what has happened during the hot event, the mitigating factors/statements get much less 'column space' than do descriptions of the event ("the pain, the pain..." - or the reporters personal slant on the potential for the neighbourhood to be slaughtered in their sleep.
3. "Hot-herper' or professional explanations of what went wrong (or right ... i.e. the animal was caged properly, antivenin was available locally, etc) are reduced to 'word bites' ... the reasoned long and instructive explanation of the event is lost to the small 'sound bite' that will add to the excitement and drama. For example; your 'professional' explanation that "'X' is a competent and experienced hot keeper so we don't know yet how the accident happened until they recover consciousness" could be (and usually is) reported "snake keeper unable to account for poisonous snake" or words to that effect.
4. For all of the bad press, there are items out there by reporters that are herp-friendly ... or at least neutral. Not all stories involving hots are negative ... rattlesnakes are getting some good, sympathetic press of late, as are the venomous snakes of India.
While I understand Mr Bachman's frustration with his experiences with the press (as a military guy working peacekeeping, I've got a few 'quote' issues of my own), I would encourage you to actually participate in the process. If you get a chance participate as a professional, take it. Or know somebody who can speak for your community. Try not to give an off-the-cuff comment ... take a moment to think of something short that addresses one issue ... and cannot be 'edited' for a ‘sound bite’. If you guys don't speak calmly and rationally for your hobby/lifestyle, the press will turn to those living next door to the incident to fill their column space.
One good line, intelligently and calmly spoken, means one less line from Billy-Bob about the shock and awe of getting bit while trying to hunt down that pesky child chasing, dog eating, 8-foot long leaping Mississippi death adder swimming by the boat.
From the few of you that I've met through e-mail correspondance and from what I've seen here; you're a group of strong characters and personalities (understatement perhaps), and would make great TV or newspaper interviews ... if you can keep control of the interview ... short, single subject sentences ... and if necessary, change the question in your answer. (i.e. "Why did the rattler attack the girl?" "The snake reacted to being grabbed by biting what it saw as a predator" ... or that sort of thing).
You guys (girls?), the python-people and the croc-philes have got a real uphill struggle for the for public acceptance (or at least their benevolent indifference) ... and for all it's problems ... the press is one of your few tools available to reach the public. You won't change a lot of minds ... but one good line from you prevents one more bad line from an uneducated onlooker from getting out.
If you don't get your message (or at least part of it) out through the press, how then?
Whew!
Wes

You are 100% correct IMO. I say things to arrouse others sometimes, (alot of times) but really hold no true grudges with anyone on these forums. I realize how ignorant I sound after I post alot of my replies, but I don't plan it out, it's how I feel at the moment. I will try to keep a more professional approch, so as not to look bad on myself, (probably too late) and it does get a message/opinion across much better.

Kinda funny how we/I are so upset on how the general public views the venomous community, but we/I still argue amogst eachother on petty issues.

I'm not too proud, and I apologize for being ignorant in my replies.
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Chad Bachman

maybe I should proof read before I hit post message...LOL
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Chad Bachman

Mr Bachman;
Sir;
Please don't think that I was in anyway criticising you ... my apologies if I left that impression. I was actually trying to reinforce what you had so eloquently stated. Except for your frustration with an event with the press … I was just trying to expand upon what you had alluded to.
Methinks perhaps our only point of difference is that I feel that you and your peers should get dirty with the press when invited … but understand why they want to talk with you and the ‘possible’ repercussions of giving them the benefit of your expertise.
I don’t envy you guys always having to fight popular misconceptions about your reptilian charges … but on a personal note, I do strongly feel that you have to crawl into the trenches with the press if you’re going to have any hope at all of changing at least a few minds.
Respects
Wes

If the forum will indulge me one more time ...
{Wes Comment: Sometimes life is very good to you and things just drop into your lap. Please notice in the item below the 'word bites' ... first the traditional victim statement (thankfully not too badly hurt) ... heretofore mentioned one-line "picturesque" reference to the bite. Plus the same in the closing statement.
However, for you as hot-herpers ... this press item is unique in that the herper-statement about the hot defending itself actually gets more column time than the bite victim! It's short and informative.
The hot herp community CAN have an influence. Thus endith the lesson. Thanks for your kind patience.}

WCJB (Gainesville, Florida) 16 September 04 Five-Year-Old Survives Rattle Snake Bite (Ashley Glass)
Hurricane season is bringing more than just power outages. The rain and flooding is causing snakes to slither right up into people's front yard. The Pinner family in Dixie County got a taste of this first hand.
Five-year-old Brianna was helping clean up limbs in the yard after hurricane Frances, when a Pygmy Rattlesnake bit her.
Her father Charles Pinner says, "At first it was two little blood marks, but then her whole leg swelled up to the size of a golf ball."
Brianna was air lifted to Shands Hospital in Gainesville, Florida. She spent three days there before returning home.
Steve Johnson of University of Florida Wildlife Ecology says, "Most people who get bit by a snake, Pygmy or any other, are usually handling them wrong or step on them so the snake is defending itself. So it's best to just leave them alone."
He tells us the Pygmy is one of six types of venomous snakes found in Florida and snakes usually flee to higher ground when there is excessive rain.
This made the Pinner's yard a perfect refuge since they live on a hill. As for Brianna, her mother Diane says, "Next time she'll wear her rubber boots in the yard," and not go barefoot.
Five-Year-Old Survives Rattle Snake Bite