Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am a grad student living in Astoria (Queens), NY, who is interested on having a new companion frog pet. For weeks I've read articles online and even bought some books already, and a magazine. I also have a standard 10 gallon tank/glass cage. I wish to prepare this cage for my frog. I'm planning to buy one, because its easier for me to take care of it for now. Though I've been interested in acquiring a White's tree frog in the past, now I have an interest in dart-poison frogs. But I have a question. I already know most people would say the WTF is easier to take care of but... which is cleaner? My impression is that the DPF (or PDF)is cleaner because it often is stored on a terrarium, which naturally takes care of some part of the cleaning process. Since I'e never dealt with crickets OR fruitflies (nor any other live insect), I would also like to know your opinion on the ease of feeding of these different types of frogs. On the long run, which is easier to maintain? Am I right that the DPF seem to require less of a hassle when cleaning (if the right terrarium is used?)Also is there any website with actual diagram or photos that I could see how a 10 gallon tank could be prepared eventually for DPFs? My native language is not english and I ignore all those plant and soil names (I don't know them even in my native language!)Ilove both type of frogs, in fact, I like most all kinds. But would like to hear your opinion first, to see if I come to the right decision for me. My priority would be a frog that is easier to take care of (most people will say the WTF I guess?) but with the least hassle in the long run. I will take any measures to take care of my frog. But from what I've told you, what do you think? Thanks!

White's tree frogs are often recomended as starter frogs because they will tolerate a wide range of conditions. Dart frogs will not necessarily be more work to maintain but they will be more sensative and less forgiving to common mistakes than a White's tree frog. If you desire dart frogs more than a tree frog I'd recomend trying your luck with darts provided that you do your research before getting them.

As far as cleanliness goes I'd agree that a cage housing a tree frog will require more cleaning than a cage housing a dart frog. White's tree frogs certainly generate more waste than dart frogs, they have larger feces. This doesn't mean that they are going to be more work to maintain, it just means you'll probably have to spot clean the cage frequently and dump out the substrate every few months, no big deal. The beautiful dart frog terrariums you see online and in books aren't maintenance free and a nice display terrarium can require as much work to maintain as a simple sterile enclosure housing a tree frog.

Providing food for a White's tree frog will be easier than for a dart frog. They eat crickets and other readily available invertabrates. When you run out of crickets you can drive to the local pet store, pick up another dozen or two and drive home. Dart frogs require small prey. Most pet stores won't sell crickets small enough to feed them. Instead you'll have to culture fruit flies and/or order crickets small enough for dart frogs from a cricket supplier. It's a little more work than a weekly trip to a pet store.

One last thing that I did want to mention is about cage space. White's tree frogs are large amphibians and, in my opinion, a 10 gallon aquarium would be too small to keep an adult frog in. Which ever direction you decide to go make sure to read as much as you can about the species before you get it. Look at different sources, not just one book or one page online. Good luck,
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Devin Edmonds
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com

They all require a lot of care in the long run. With darts, you will at least need to raise fruit flies and perhaps springtails, as well as perhaps supplying them with occasional pinhead crickets. While the dart frog terrarium systems are usually more biologically balanced (meaning you don't have to tear them down and clean the whole thing if you have a good recycling of wastes by the plants and substrate organisms,) the smaller the terrarium is, the more difficult it is to maintain this balance. A ten gallon is pretty small for this. Breeders that I know breed pairs of darts in 10 gallons, but these set-ups are simplified and not very decorative. I assume you want something decorative.

Whites are delightful frogs. They are easier to handle if you need to do this for any reason. They are slower and perhaps hardier to changes than darts. But they do grow a lot larger and 10 gallons doesn't seem enough for an adult White's. You still have the problem of feeding them live, moving food, which you either have to purchase or raise. In my view, fruit flies (which are too small for White's) are a lot easier to raise than crickets or mealworms.

Either way, you will find keeping either ends up by raising or buying a lot of other "stuff," and the daily maintenance of one sort or another is required by both.

As companions, I can't call them "companions." They do not care a bit about their owners. They do not reciprocate our concern and affection for them. They aren't cuddly, and cuddling or picking them up is not good for them any more than it would be for an aquarium fish. But they are fun and interesting to watch, and they appear to have "personalities," which are enjoyable.

Just learn all you can about their care, see if you can provide it, and then decide if keeping either kind of frog is what you want to do.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

By the way, Aldaberto, if English is your second language, you do better with it than most of us that failed to learn it properly as a first language.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Thank you all for your opinions. I really love both types, or even most frogs, as I said. I'm willing to do what it takes to take care of them. Yeah, I understand that I would preferably need a 20 gallon for an adult WTF. But my space is not that large, even for that. Maybe I could, but at the moment, I thought 10 was ok. I also understand that food for a WTF is a lot easier to get. DPFs are not well sponsored by most "normal" pet shops. However, since I live in NYC, in 2 of the 3 PETCO pet shops they did sell some fruit flies wingless cultures. Are those any good? Would that suffice for a lone dart?(Yeah, I sound super ignorant, but many people raise their own custom cultures, and I am not sure about anything now... BTW, does anyone now a good amphibian specialty place at NYC?) Oh, I also, I called the frog a "companion" for the fact that it is "there" for me! I now how delicate they are, and was not planning to cuddle them as teddy bears, even if I get a WTF! ^-^ I'm really getting acquainted with as many books and sites I can, but sometimes it can get confusing. As a last request, is there any excellent, non-outdated book on dart frogs I should get? Thanks for your previous replies. Any more replies would be deeply appreciated.

Here are my two cents.

Although you can get by with paying for cheap, inexpensive housing for an inexpensive Pelodryas caerulea (dumpy), it will cost several times fold to maintain them as crickets are not as cheap as they seem. I can dish out between $4-12 a month for just two firebellied toads I have. That doesn't seem like much, but it quickly gets expensive if you own a lot of large treefrogs. Dumpies are several times the size of firebellies too. And they eat big crickets. The thing that draws me away from big frogs as pets is that live crickets make a ton of noise at night for me. I knew somebody that puts out at least $100 a month to maintain her collection. She has thankfully downsized hers, lol from talking to her last. Plus, crickets can die easily if they are not kept clean and well fed, so you'll tend to lose several. You can't get all your month's worth of crickets either, as they'll either grow too big or they'll die off if they're adults.

Virtually everybody knows about the pains of breeding crickets. They smell, they're loud, and they can take several weeks before they breed.

About the petco fly cultures, I spent a measily $5 for dart frog food, that has lasted me several months. I just used that initial culture to propagate other cultures. I make homemade fruit fly medium, and I use old water bottles for containers.

If you want to get into dart frogs, start cultivating fruit flies a month ahead. Therefore, you will get the hang of it and have several. I always have a few active cultures and a few backup cultures always going.

About maintenance, although dumpies will require substantially more cleaning. Dart frog cleaning, particularily if we're talking about quarantine cages, are a big pain in the butt. Both my mantella and blue dart frogs escaped when I removed some of the cocobedding, and I had to catch them. This is in contrary to a sedate white's treefrog, who can gently be restrained without much effort.

A trick that I do to "clean" a vivarium is periodically turning the soil over. As watering the cage will flood the tank (normally rain would wash most of the residues away), turning the soil helps to get feces and dead food underneath the soil where beneficial microbes will help break it down. I do this in my quarantine cages as well. I also drilled a hole at the bottom of the critter keepers so I can flush the soil. However, you should change some, not all the soil in different intervals, as it will break down and begin to get soggy.

Honestly, its up to you. Both frogs are very fun. Although I'm not as crazy about dart frogs as some are, I will admit, they are easier and cheaper to maintain and they don't need as big as cages. Big frogs have a tendency to destroy a delicately planted cage too, so you will need some extra sturdy woody plants.

as a final note, make sure you do plenty of reading. A vivarium takes a lot of planning. I didn't house any animals in my first vivarium for two months until I got the fruit flies, correct humidity, correct ventilation, etc. There are many, many resources out there. Good luck.

That is certainly a point about the darts being extremely athletic in general and quite able to escape while you're doing any maintenance. I've gone on some merry chases myself. Also, if you don't see the escape, which is also quite possible, they don't last 30 minutes, but dehydrate rapidly into little mummies, while White's have a waxy exudate that helps them through drier periods.

I haven't had the same luck with PetCo fruitfly cultures, but perhaps they have improved. You can get a starter kit from Saurian with everything you need. There are other places that offer flies and kits, but I haven't tried them, since this has been satisfactory. They are probably all pretty good. I add a fist full of excelsior or Easter basket grass or the like, which increases production by giving more surface for the pupating larvae. Another good interim food for darts is springtails. Ed's Flymeat carries a kit. This is a bag of charcoal chips, some yeast, a covered container and a vial of springtails with instructions. I've modified this and now keep them on a jungle mix soil to which I occasionally add some raw rice, with the charcoal chips on top. To feed, all you have to do is pick up a piece of charcoal and blow the springtails off into the tank. This is not a mainstay food, but a real treat. Darts love them, and they are great for newly emerged froglets.

Don't sweat buying captive bred darts on line. Any reliable breeder knows how to ship overnight, and will work it out with you. Although one of the breeders and I did have a nightmare loss from a mis-directed shipment once, (his financial loss, because any reliable breeder guarantees live delivery, and my saddness about the waste of life after receiving dead frogs after several days), this is rare. Except for this isolated incident, every frog has arrived healthy, unstressed and active. This is probably better than they fare from any pet store, where they have been handled (possibly mishandled) many times, and you may be getting wild caught dart frogs that are truly difficult to maintain. A reliable breeder will tell you whether the frog is wild caught or captive bred. Pet store employees simply don't know.

Now that we've all totally confused you---I didn't mean to patronize you about the "companion" thing, but there are people who want something to handle and pet, and DON'T know, so it was a kind of throw-in admonition, just in case.

Enjoy whatever you decide.
Saurian

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Thanks a ton to everybody that has so kindly tried to help. It seems I'm leaning towards the darts, even though I do also like the WTF. It does takes lots of more preparation to care for the DPFs (since its easier to acquire supplies and equipment offline for WTFs than for DPFs.) I'll try my best to get acquainted with fruit fly culture managament as best as possible, since it seems simpler than crickets (and my space is not that great... and crickets could be noisy?) I will keep learning more each day about these frogs, and will tell you later my decision. Its been nice of all of you, and, should you have any more suggestions, please feel free to do so. THANKS!!!

There are a couple of us in the city. I live in Brooklyn and have had darts for over a year now. I make 2-3 cultures of fruit flies a week, have about 5 containers of springtails going and that is about all, with the occasional tank maintainance. I have over 20 frogs, some thumbnails and that suffices for all of their food needs. Once thing that is great to have is a separate room or space for them where you can regulate the temps. Over this summer I left the AC running at 75 to keep the tanks from overheating, and am able to heat the room in the winter. In some cases I have been the supplier of fruit fly reserves to some of my friends in the area as well. Like what was posted before, take some time and get a couple of cultures of flies going, learn their turnover rates ( about 21 days for hydei and 14 for meloganasters). If you have any questions feel free to email me.

rob

About the "patronizing" thing, I call all my 10 frogs my "pets." They all are named, well, my tricolors haven't been named yet as none are old enough to be sexed. Although frogs aren't handable pets, I think dart frogs make good (yet expensive) "pet" frogs. I know, I'm a bit of an ecentric dart frog owner; I actually am one of the few dudes that do name mine, lol. You can tell frogs have gone to my head.

The bolder Dart frogs, dumpies, clawed frogs, marine toads, and firebellies are all nice frogs as they seem to tame easier, meaning most will learn who feeds them and won't be alarmed in your presence. Ever kept a bullfrog? Ooy, what a pain. They will always be nervous and will never settle down in captivity. You will feel like you're actually torturing the animal everytime you're just trying to feed it or clean its tank.

Plus, dart frogs come out in the daytime, easy to view without any special lighting. My tinc waits for me every morning when I come to feed him.

Pick whatever species you like. You might, though all frogs have individual personalities, might want to avoid auratus for your first frog, just because they have a reputation of shyness, but its really up to you. I will say, tinctorius/ azureus are very fun, but they are quite gluttonous. you will need a lot of food for just one. A leucomelas is also a nice froggy, they have a nice call and aren't too expensive.

Still, this is basically general, as my tinc was shy the first few weeks I had him, and its more personal preference. Pick the frog you like best.

Nice photo of the D. pumilio Bastimentos doing his love call.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus