Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I´m wondering if ALL the genus of the subfamily Xenodontinae are opistoglyphous.
For example, are the snakes of the genus Liophis, Lystrophis and Waglerophis, opistoglyphous?!

Thanks in advance,
PhilodryasFAN

>>I´m wondering if ALL the genus of the subfamily Xenodontinae are opistoglyphous.
>>For example, are the snakes of the genus Liophis, Lystrophis and Waglerophis, opistoglyphous?!

The term opisthoglyph is really fairly meaningless, in the sense that there are a large number of different dental configurations, and they can vary even within a genus. Lumping all dentitions with grooves under one term and those without under another is fairly pointless.

Within the Xenodontinae, there are species with and without grooves on their posterior maxillary teeth, but most if not all have a venom gland, as you would expect.

Cheers,

WW
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WW Home

Thanks for the answer, Wolfgang.
I thought that the snakes of the genuses Liophis and Lystrophis didn´t belong to that subfamily.
Do you know if the snakes of that genuses are able to inoculate venom?

Thanks again, you are genius
PhilodryasFAN

I'm researching Liophis at the moment (literally) and we should be submitting the paper later on this year Watch this space. The venom glands were bloody huge and the venom is very complex. I'd rate them as a potential worry as a bite. I'm a bit leary of most Xenodontidae. Some like Tomodon, Waglerophis and Xenodon are going to be included in our second wave of research. They certainly look the part of something interesting.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

I dont know about lystrophis, but liophis and waglerophis are aglyphous, but waglerophis have enlarged fangs in back that do not conducts venom(heterodontia).

>>I dont know about lystrophis, but liophis and waglerophis are aglyphous, but waglerophis have enlarged fangs in back that do not conducts venom(heterodontia).

Both those genera have bloody big back fangs. The terms 'aglyphous' and 'opisthoglyphous' are pretty meanless and certainly don't reflect the reality. Basically, the ancestral colubroid snake not only had venom glands but also maxillary fangs. Not huge in either case but there. From that point, for the last eight million years ago or so, the snakes have been tinkering with it. This has been going on in families that in some cases represent very ancient splits. We have been comparing the venoms across these family levels and its been pretty fascinating.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Oh my god!
I didn´t know that!
So, Bryan, do you think that a snake of the genus Liophis it could give a nasty bite?!
Here, in Argentina, the Liophis spp. are very common, mainly L. poecilogyrus (sublineatus, I think), L. miliaris and L. anomalus.
I thought that those were inoffensive snakes.
I think I´ve learnt something new and exciting!

Cheers,
PhilodryasFAN

>>Oh my god!
>>I didn´t know that!
>>So, Bryan, do you think that a snake of the genus Liophis it could give a nasty bite?!
>>Here, in Argentina, the Liophis spp. are very common, mainly L. poecilogyrus (sublineatus, I think), L. miliaris and L. anomalus.
>>I thought that those were inoffensive snakes.
>>I think I´ve learnt something new and exciting!

By and large, Liophis ARE pretty inoffensive - everyone I know in Brazil picks them up without thinking twice, and I have done so on many occasions. However, there have been a few reports from Brazil of unpleasant bites, and the isolated venom is certainly powerful - some of my Brazilian colleagues have been working on this, and it does very nasty things to mice even in small quantities.

Basically, enjoy them, try not to get bitten, and don't handle them after handling fish or amphibians, in case they think you need a bit of subduing prior to dinnertime.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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Check out the following paper:

Salomao, M.G., Albolea, A.B.P. & S.M. Almeida Santos (2003) Colubrid snakebite: a public health problem in Brazil. Herpetological Review 34: 307-312.

Cases described include one case of Liophis miliaris bite which resulted in significant hemorrhage, and the patient was given Bothrops antivenom due to confusion by the doctors (nothing new there...)

The question of whether the fangs of colubrid snakes are grooved or not is pretty irrelevant both biologically and clinically, since snakes with ungrooved fangs can also get their venom in. Ask the Japanese farmers bitten by the ungrooved Rhabdophis trigrinus - Oh, sorry, you can't, they bled to death.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

Wow... I´m stupefied.

Wolfgang, thanks a lot for the information.

Cheers,
PhilodryasFAN

>>Wow... I´m stupefied.
>>

Imagine how we felt while finding all of this out in the lab! It was pretty mindblowing. We never expected the colubrid venoms to be like this. It was a lot of fun do find out snakes are even cooler than we thought they were Also, it freed us from the tyranny of 'no fangs, no fun'. I think its quite funny that I did my Ph.D. on taipans and now I'm playing with ratsnakes! Oh how the mighty fall! LOL!!!

One thing that needs to be stressed is that while the colubrids are by and large venomous and in many cases put out small amounts of highly toxic venom, despite this these snakes are typically 'harmless' to humans. A garter snake for example is technically venomous but from a practical point of view its venom is of trivial importance. There certainly are some medically important species but these are not in the majority. Being venomous is not automatically equal to being dangerous. The determining factor is how much venom is actually delivered, which usually is bugger all due to a number of factors.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

LOL!!
Thank you very much, Bryan.
You and Wolfgang are two geniuses for me

Cheers,
PhilodryasFAN

Im from brazil and I kept Liophis miliaris some years ago. They are aglyphous and does not have ANY enlarged teeth. I pretty much doubt that they could do a nasty bite.

>>Im from brazil and I kept Liophis miliaris some years ago. They are aglyphous and does not have ANY enlarged teeth. I pretty much doubt that they could do a nasty bite.

Below is a shot of the enlarged teeth from a Paraguayan Liophis poecylogyrus

The venom glands are also very sizeable and the venom itself quite complex.

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Oh my fu**ing god!!
Then I will see my Liophis sagittifer sagittifer, and I will tell to a friend that his Liophis poecilogyrus sublineatus is venomous, LOL!

Note the impressive amount of venom soaked into the cloth.

Cheers
B

Yes, it´s amazing!!
If I see that these L. poecilogyrus sublineatus have that fangs, I think I will get one NOW... LOL!

Cheers,
PhilodryasFAN

Do you have a pic of the head of this liophis?

>>Do you have a pic of the head of this liophis?

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Wow!! Great thread! I learned a lot.

Thanks mates,

Al

>>>>Do you have a pic of the head of this liophis?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Cheers
>>Bryan
>>-----
>>Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Australian Venom Research Unit,
>>University of Melbourne
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
>>Museum Victoria
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>http://www.venomdoc.com