Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I keep all of my lizards under UV lighting, and I know that all reptiles and amphibians besides snakes need UV lighting. My friend has a savannah monitor and he says that they do not need it. I have heard of different theories about monitors and UV lighting, but I think that they need it. Can you talk some sense into my friend?

NP
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

First of all, I am not crunchy. Secondly, I would like you to explain why they do not need it. They live where they are constantly in the sun, so why would they not need it now? I can relate to breeders who keep their monitors outdoors where they do get natural sunlight, but why do they not need it at all? The only other way that I can understand is if you gave it every form of calcium powder when you fed it. If I am wrong, then I will accept defeat, but I need to know why I am wrong.

Calcium powder does not offer UV, UV does not offer calcium either.

To understand why they do not need it you must understand what it is and what it does. By your wording you do not understand it. You simply may have just read it someplace or heard it is needed.

You said they need it cause they are in the sun all the time?
I am pretty sure a polar bear sits on ice 24/7 in the wild. Do the zoo's need to build a giant iceberg to keep polar bears?

Your way of thinking is much that of a fish out of water. You see cause a fish really does need water. Needing and benefiting, or even using are not the samething.

I did not mean that they are in the sun 24/7. I meant that in their natural environment, they get at least 6 hours of UV lighting a day. Can you supply a website where it says that UV lighting is not necessary.

Have you watched wild reptiles at all? I don't even see the anoles at my place sitting in the sun for 6 hours. They go to it to heat up in the morning, or after a meal thats it. But if the air temps are high they do not even go in the sun at all they stay hidden.

I do not need a website to tell me if it is needed or not.

And it has been demostrating that UV bulbs are "not" needed, for many years now.

This web-site, is not a write it once and it will forever be that, its an active, continuing experiment. So far, the far, the supporters of UV bulbs, seem to fall out and away. Which tells me, their beliefs were misguided.

What I find interesting is, you ask a question, and its answered in a direct way. Its been tested to a degree beyond what your goals are. Yet you go on and on.

Then you say, well the monitors must be getting it in an indirect way. This statement is so funny, I am afraid, I will have to make fun of you.

Which way is the direct way? no one has decided that yet. Of course they get the calicum they need, or they would be Shark monitors(no bones). They get it in their food(diet) To me, thats a direct way. You see, I do not care how much or how little UV a monitor gets, without calicum in the diet, they are jello.

While you may like to discuss the merits of discussion(arguing), may I point out, that we are actively keeping and successfully raising monitors(the doing), with you are actively arguing without the benefit of the doing. To me that makes you the odd one and in no position to do the pointing.

You UV bulb believers also love to bring up "GREED" as some excuse or reason. I do believe your right, only the "GREED" is misplaced. It may be applied to those full page advertisments That ARE selling a two dollar litebulb for $50. I would love for you to address that. Thanks FR

First. That is the GREED that I was referring to, nothing is as it seems, people, companies advertise and seldomly does it ever do as it says...hell it is like bottled water, nothing more than tap water, [bleep] uv bulbs are probably same thing as house bulbs just with a little different shape....so I agree with you on that for sure...

secondly. So I don't talk about what others have done or doing, In my experience of 25 some odd yrs not all with monitors, reptiles or other animals for what it is worth seem to have a higher immune system and seem to appear more vibrant and colorful when they receive a reg. dose of uv/b...Also if I might add, recently getting involved studying timorensis, on my subadults and juvis....when they get more uv/b in ne form the seem to have a greater feed response. instead of just eating dusted crickets and an occasional pinkie, they seem to show more interest in fish, eggs, snails, etc....Am curious if ne one with experience with timors, and other similar animals has ne further info.

thirdly, When i say direct or indirect I am meaning that uv rays don't just dissapate(spelling?) when the hit a surface, alot of times they are absorbed or reflected/deflected into an enclosure....this would be indirect, I refer to direct and sun shining right into the enclosure or one of these so called uv/b bulbs.

Finally, It would be my guess (and I have not ever come up with the 99% number you did but I might be wrong) that the success rate of one that use these uv bulbs are just that, newbies; and have no real idea on what it takes to sustain a healthy monitor. The people at the pet shop pushes these items on folks without a clue so they can further reap the 400% markup on these poor naive bastards. (pet smart, Pet co, lil local pet shops,) I was in Pet land awhile back trying to get some supplies and the clerk was trying to talk this soccer mom and her lil son to buy a black throat cause it was so cute....lol, had no idea what it was gonna grow up to be so yeah if you want to say 99%, [bleep] that is fine I try to stay away from arguments like that. I use these so called uv/b bulbs and also use the sun and I have been known to use regular ass bulbs, and I don't ever recall losing a reptile due to ne thing other than old age.

sorry so long and I really do enjoy the dicussions. Bottom line is that in my experience, duplicating natural habitat and exactly what they would be accustomed to in the wild is always the best policy.

j

I agree, that healthy monitors are more colorful and vibrant. But healthy monitors does not mean using UV bulbs. Healthy monitors are a result of good husbandry. Good husbandry, may or may not include the use of UV bulbs.

Whats funny to me is, someone like you, Those who just started with monitors and already you have enough knowledge(experience??) to tell those with experience they are wrong and you are right, even thou you just started and they are generations ahead of you. Yes, this is common and its odd too. If you were smart, you would not open your mouth until you had something that superceeds the others. Please do not take that bad, its not meant to be.

Heres what I have to ask you. What do you think you will learn, between now and sometime in the future after you have raised Timors to many generations???

Do you think you will look back and think, man I was right about everything? or will you think that you were kinda naive when you first started? Or will it be the reality of somewhere inbetween?

Many people here think this and that about stuff, like oh man to hatch the first of something. To me, thats not much to get excited over, I get excited when I build something 15 years ago and its still current and usable now. Thats great isn't it? FR

P.s. Are these colorfull and vibrant enough?

Amen Frank, when I started keeping monitors, I did alot of reading and thought, man this aint so hard.
Then I did some more reading and started watching my monitors and thought, whoa, the lizards aint doning what the book says.
When I stop leaning, that will be the day it is no longer fun.
As far as UV and UVB lights, I see them as a ripoff item.
What and how did you ever raise and breed all those animals without out the wonderbulbs Frank? How long have you been doing this again?

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

FR, Hey your out in Tucson right? Do you know Jim Cane, and is he still living out there?

j

Let me know, I'll takem off your hands for you....

if so they'd be full grown now (11/04/03) was they date.

"duplicating natural habitat and exactly what they would be accustomed to in the wild is always the best policy"

How does one go about exactly copying what they do in the wild and what they come across etc.??

How is a glass fronted cage(box), even with dirt, rocks, UV bulbs, exactly what they are accustomed to in the wild?

I agree that the "wonderbulbs" are most likely a ripoff....uv is beneficial not neceassarily a must have....and when i say duplicating habitat of course u can't make it exact....I left out the word "try" to duplicate. My mistake. And I am not new to monitors, I am new to timors. Also, Fr, those are nice, I forgot we are even questioning....was it the bulbs or uv/b rays?

j

I have monitors, tegus, beardies, chameleons, Iguannas and snakes.
Not one high priced special light in my house.
My animals get everything they need from their diet and no I don't dust everything, just crickets that go to the babies.
They are doing great without it. Another thing to think about is what did us poor reptile keepers use before the UV and UVB lights came on the market?

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Fine. If they get a good diet then they may not need a UV or UVB lighting source. And I do not have any high priced light in my house either. I take them outside to bask, and I take my tegu everywhere with me. I will get off the subject, but I still think that they require UV lighting, and so do alot of other people. I will respect your opinion, and if it works for you, then great. I was just posting here because of what I have heard, and because my friends monitor does not eat, and his legs look very weak. Sorry to all the posters if I rattled a couple chains.

Just for kicks, I have raised hundreds of individuals, of many species, from the largest to the smallest, I have raised them to the point of many many generations. This is the best and only test needed, for me. I do not use UV bulbs, period.

All of our monitors are raised indoors with incandescent bulbs. Its my opinion, that fast growing monitors have to greatest need for placed calicum. Most of our monitors of all sizes grow from hatchling to adult within a year or so. Again, we do not need or use, UV bulbs.

Nor do we use calicum powder with most of our babies, the only thing we dust is crickets, and crickets is only a small part of most of our monitors diet. Most of our larger monitors never get crickets, therefore, never get dusted crickets.

Now, about your beliefs on wild monitors. Do you really think monitors sit outside in the sun all day? Man if they did, they sure would be easy to find. Which they are not. Monitors spend most of their lives underground or inside hollows. That includes the daytime.

Unfortunately, as with lots of subjects, you will find people who believe in both sides of this issue, again unfortunately, most that believe in UV bulbs, are not the most successful of keepers. They are the ones who believe in theory and not results.

For me, I have lots of results, therefore, theory is not needed. At least not in this case. So pay up, your friend is right. Good luck FR

It depends on what you mean when you say "need"

Many people, myself included but many more than myself, that monitors can/will breed without UV light. They will also grow up to become large monitors (assuming we are discussing large monitors - I keep mostly salvators). I have hatched and raised a few salvators and one of them is 5'4" or more and 2.5 years old and has never been outside or exposed to any UV lighting. Other people can provide similar experiences with other monitors.

Some people claim to have raised monitors for many many years with no UV. It is up to you to decide whether you believe them or not. I have had some monitors for 6 years with no UV lighting and they seem fine. My iguanas are the same way although they are not the monster sized iguanas, the males are a bit over 4 feet, and I suspect it was poor feeding when I got them rather than lack of UV, but maybe it was both (the iguanas are 9 years old with minimal UV). Again, other people claim to have had monitors longer than that with no UV that seem fine.

Now, does that mean UV is not helpful? No one knows for sure. I am inclined to believe that UV may be beneficial to them. There are reasons to believe that UV is useful or important or even necessary for them in the wild. However, I am also very skeptical of the UV bulbs available in terms of whether they actually do anything of value. Perhaps the captive environments we provide them make up for the lack of UV in other ways (more consistent food, better food, more consistent environment, etc.). Again, I doubt anyone can say for certain.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

Ok. It seems that there are some very critical people on th monitor forum. I think that bloodbat has a very good point in saying that no one is positive about monitors needing UV.

And to FR, I know that they do not spend that long outside their burrows, but UV rays are also absorbed through the earth, so regardless of where the monitor is, it is still getting some UV lighting.

People are entitled to their own opinions, and I was just stating the things that I have been told over the years. I now know that monitors can do well without UV lighting, so I will admit that in a sense I was wrong. But, there is the little point that no one knows whether or not monitors need it, so my friend is doing the right thing after all.

I am sorry if I rattled a few chains with my original question.

its you and how you respond, not the question, even though it has been answered a thousand plus times.

Also, unless you are replacing the best of uvb bulbs every few months, then they are not getting any anyway.

No one with any direct breeding and keeping experience thinks that monitors need uvb to be successful and vibrant.

andrew owen, varanuscreations.com (and yeah, it says they don't need it there too, lol)

>> And to FR, I know that they do not spend that long outside
>> their burrows, but UV rays are also absorbed through the earth,
>> so regardless of where the monitor is, it is still getting some
>> UV lighting.

I am now getting off the subject of monitors, but UV rays cannot penetrate the earth by more than a fraction of a millimeter. A monitor in a burrow where it cannot see the sky is completely shielded from all UV.

Luke

I personally don't use UVB either. even on beardies and Uro's...If you supplement with miner-all correctly and you keep ideal temps cage size etc. It does not seem to be needed.

Doug

Two things show up here. First, nobody said anything about the wisdom of proving your friend right or wrong -- I think we're trying to keep animals in good health, not settle bets. Second, there is a serious case of "don't need no" among people who still post on the forums in the US with respect to a number of practices in keeping monitors.

You might want to ask why all the Europeans and Australians who keep monitors, and all zoos in the US and elsewhere make use of UVB for monitors, whether by providing access to unfiltered sunlight or using bulbs that produce at least some UVB. This is not a joke, they all do, as do many serious monitor-keepers in the US. There is an attitude on the forums, that's all.

Many of these same people who have "never used a UV bulb" also post pictures of their animals in outdoor housing while claiming that UVB is unnecessary. Some will tell you that they've raised umpteen thousand monitors for 600 generations without a quantum of UVB light being provided, etc., etc. They may well have, but a lot of their animals happen to be housed outside, too.

What the naysayers are missing is something that has been argued on this and other forums for years. They misunderstand the roles of UVB by thinking that it only contributes to vitamin B3 synthesis, and that you can compensate for that with dietary sources of B3 and of calcium. This is only partly true. Without UVB, animals do not initiate ANY of the endocrinological and biochemical pathways associated with D3 synthesis, and all of the other physiological linkages that are tied to these processes are aborted. Lacking UVB may not kill your monitor, and it may grow and breed and so forth, but it is absolutely not what these animals are set up to do.

Any thread where someone advocates use of UVB for monitors attracts a mess of ranting, name-calling posts, as you can probably check back in a day or so and see. However, ask yourself this: why do all zoos, all scientifically-based monitor keeping facilities, all Europeans, all Australians, and a lot of North Americans who don't post here all employ sunlight or UVB-emitting bulbs? Are they all stupid? Why listen to somebody who can't even spell the word calcium, as opposed to biologists who study vitamin and mineral metabolism in reptiles?

Thank you samsweet, seems like most people can recite what they hear or read and still have no concept of what is really going on. I appreciated reading your response. Doing things half-ass in today's society seems to be highly contagious, and it is good to see that you have not become infected.

There are a few others that seem to know what they are talking about and I enjoy reading there entries as well. Although some other entries are pretty humorous.

sorry for the rant,

j

>seems like most people can recite what they hear or
>read and still have no concept of what is really going on.

That sounds exactly like "ALL keepers do this, so it is needed".

Since you are smart, do you know what 'argumentum ad numerum' means?

I would think a smart person, wouldn't listen to anyone, and would judge for themselves, and probably come to a conclusion similiar to bloodbat's it MAY be beneficial, but is clearly not NEEDed.

--Robert

woot, i am impressed with your pseudo-intellectual latin phrase...yeah that is all fine and dandy in a perfect world....however it doesn't apply....if people are ignorant to a certain subject then you would hardly get a correct answer through argument by numbers.....Argue til you are blue in the face.....[bleep] why don't we argue what came first, chicken or the egg?

All I do know is there is no need to have a pissing contest about uv lighting, because the ones that aren't using are probably getting it ne ways, in some indirect ways....also, how could you measure the long term benefits or ill affects of uv without some form of control, Also, uv rays probably sparked life on this planet and continues to support life, and then it is also proven that receiving vitamins/minerals and so forth in their natural occuring forms are more beneficial then through artificial forms such as supplements....this doesn't just apply to reptiles but to all forms of life....so i guess the question is not whether you can but should you...

And then like someone else brought up is whether or not these bulbs (that say they produce these uv/b rays) really do provide what they claim....I have lived long enough to realize that nothing is as it seems.....thanks to the root of all evils; GREED....
I am done rambling,
Going back to just reading the forum rather than participating...
I still appreciate your insert samsweet....
j

UV bulbs may be benefitual to those with a poor or weak understanding of captive monitors.

It just seems to me, that 99% of these UV supporters, never recieve longterm successful results. ITs this thats so darn concerning.(99% is being optimistic) actually more.

If we again use the benefit of achives, we would see, that those big supporters(at least loud) has lost their monitors and are no longer in the test to see how well it works. Yet, the folks who do not have a concern about UV bulbs, are still at it.

In reality, I believe UV bulbs are not the problem, whether they are used or not. Its more of a problem, that the folks who promote there use are blind to others(ones who don't use them) successes.

If keepers want to use them, then fine, thats great, but are they needed? No they are not needed. Do they show benefit, no they have not.

A better question is, are they harmful, they may be, but we have no real proof of that.

I have many monitors their entire life without UV bulbs. I also have adult monitors outside for over a decade(with the real and only UV bulb) the sun. I have not seen any of the problems with either the outdoor or indoor monitors, that are suppose to be seen with lack of UV. The Real concern is why not?????? In fact, I do not see any difference, what so ever. Again, why not????

I am a believer that education and experience only allows better questions, and with this subject of whether UV "BULBS" are needed, A better question is, why are UV bulbs, only needed by those that show little to no success, the newbies???? FR

I find it ironic that someone would label the one post in this entire thread, that is not based on personal experience as the smart one. I get the feeling this is much more like religion to some people than science.

I haven't done the things you have, not near the success or longetivity, but I do know there are much better things to be spending time on than UVB bulbs. I know lots of things that don't seem to be discussed much here (in truth they are discussed alot more often now, than say two or three years ago), that can have immediate bad consequences.

I know I'm an idiot (by other's terms), but I have much more respect for someone who posts what they have done with their one monitor, than someone that continually posts what others have done with thier monitors. Perhaps it's because I think there are somethings that are not cut and clear, and require you to see, think and respond.

Thanks Frank,

--Robert

PS - Email me please....

However just remember you just said.. UV is good for people with weak understanding of husbandry, which.... it seems from your expressed opinions is 90% of the forum. So why AREN'T you advocating UV to most of the forum members. Oh yeah, you couldn't care less how we do.

If i knew something was great for beginners to use just to start with that'll help improve results, I'd recommend it. Oh well.

Haha, this forum is a big advertisement for some good ol' sand monitors from FR. Enjoy it.

O

UV light, and even bulbs, might be beneficial to those monitors own ed by people who claim, or actually have, a better than poor or weak understanding of captive monitors.

I am not disputing that monitors will breed without UV access. I am not disputing they will grow and appear healthy without UV. They can do these things without UV.

However, although you detected no benefits to UV bulbs or UV access does not mean there are no benefits. There might be. There might not be. Studies would need to be conducted to find out. Regardless of the many generations you claim, you cannot state, with any accuracy, that there are no benefits to UV. You have produced very few generations when compared to the timespan that monitors have evolved to make use of the resources of their environment. You may not yet have seen the long-term problems. The long-term problems may show up later down the road. You have kept lacies since 2001, if I recall correctly, that is not very long to see long-term effects.

This possibility might not be the most important aspect to focus on at the moment since so few people manage to keep monitors long -term enough to have to worry. However, if you are as advanced as you like to believe you are, then your animals might be the perfect test animals for such studies. You have the skills, resources, and knowledge to take monitors many generations to test such hypotheses. Maybe you are not interested in such studies, but your lack of interest does not mean your theory that a lack of UV has no detrimental effects on monitors is true. It simply means you do not care, or, if you prefer, that you do not prioritize such knowledge. Fair enough, you are entitled to that view, and I am not critical of that view. In reality, I do not prioritize it either, as I have more immediate monitor problems to deal with that strike me as more important than UV issues.

I will state that for most new keepers, and some long-time keepers, the question of UV should probably not be a priority. I have never seen an animal turned back from the brink of death solely by the addition of UV, nor have I seen an animal decline soley from the lack of UV. There are always other factors at play, and those factors seem to have more importance than UV. So, at least in the short-term, UV should not be the top priority. A good diet, a good environment, and good husbandry should be the focus. You can get "good" results with those goals without UV.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

The same reasons for hormone levels, and UV and alike have also been examined in fish, actually more-so than in reptiles and said fish-people were aware of it much earlier, and genuinely accepted than in reptile people....something to do with the calming effect of fish in a tank, vrs an apex predator in their tank I wonder?

Many of these tales of 'light' have been investigated thoroughly and under lengthy tests: Division of United States Naval Submariners who have looked in-depth into light, bioryhtms, circadian ryhtms, hormone levels, etc...not to mention tactics and how they apply to naval warfare....in submarines, a closed system filled with torpedos, missiles and a bunch a sailors such things cannot be taken 'lightly' haha....

cheers,
mbayless

Hey Mark,

I actually raise fish and have produced them. My tank has no lights on it at all. So guess I got lucky in not needing it. Or perhaps it depends on the kind of fish your working with?

They misunderstand the roles of UVB by thinking that it only contributes to vitamin B3 synthesis, and that you can compensate for that with dietary sources of B3 and of calcium. This is only partly true. Without UVB, animals do not initiate ANY of the endocrinological and biochemical pathways associated with D3 synthesis, and all of the other physiological linkages that are tied to these processes are aborted.

---------------------------------------------
Below are a couple of links to articles on D3/UVB on preventing autoimmune diseases , cancers , kidney problems .
Something most herpers don't even consider because they don't see an outward calcium defficiency that signals something might be wrong.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/3/362
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/3/362
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

duh incomplete link sorry
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/3/362?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=UV D3 hormone production&searchid=1095399076919_20553&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&journalcode=ajcn

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/14/2579?ijkey=96e399746f5c3eb7cb6b3c2852c990ca6ace4263&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

I have not seen the benefits of uv in any of them, not just monitors. My beardies are very colorful and very healthy yet have never seen uvb, outside of what standard phillips give them.

My male nose be will rival any as far as color, never seen uvb.

My monitors are very healthy and have good color, yet are not under uvb.

I could go on, but you get the point.

UVB bulbs, in my opinion are a scam.

andrew

I keep a few monitors and breed bearded dragons, none have UV bulbs, all live indoors, infact my beardies live in my dark basement. Soon in the new house all of my animals will be in the basement with GE outdoor and indoor flood bulbs as their basking lights and light source. I realized something a long time ago about UV bulbs, most of them have a frosted coating blocking most of the light to give it a soft white appearance and disipate it evenly, problem being is that real UV bulbs (used in sterilizers) are clear and have health warnings as well as phosphorus blacklight bulbs do, why no warning on reptile bulbs? Why frost the surface? Ill tell ya why, those bulbs cost someone who knows where to look for them between $2-7 each, because the markup for profit is so high, if you were in the pet industry and you sold them wouldnt you tell everyone they are needed and advocate them, after all every 6 months the same customers would be paying you $21-50 each for those bulbs. Its like those metal Halide bulbs that are sold for saltwater fish, they sell in hardware store for $14-19, but in a petstore they sell for $89-200 each. A good book came out recently about monitor lizards and theres a small paragraph about an independant test on UV bulbs, ythe results showed that only one bulb tested even put out any readable UVA or UVB.
Something that can be duplicated, by replacing a UV bulb with a normal flouescent bulb you are getting the same amount of ambient heat, I bet you get the same results. Heres what I saw this spring through summer every 3-4 weeks (consistantly like clockwork) with my beardies with NO UV bulbs and theyve lived in my basement with no outside light getting to them.

Heres a few more pics, sometime Ill get new ones, by the way heres some pics of a few animals from a good friends collection also. This is a vibrant bright orange male beardie...

This is one of his sons at only 4 months old, hes now 5 months old and 18+ inches long.

This is my ackie, he sees no UV lighting, just a GE floodbulb.


This is my little girl whos under 3 years old, shes over 6ft 2 inches. No UV lighting.

This is Shadow my male Albig, no UV and going on 4 years old.

I used to help a friend with his petshop, he sold UV lights, and he had them in every cage in the petshop but not in his house where his monitors are, nor his uromastyx, etc. I help a good friend now with a web based business and an enormous personal collection of reptiles and amphibians, yet no UV bulbs in sight and many of them live in his basement.Heres a few....
This is "T" and his mate, hes 5ft long with part of his tail missing, and shes over 3ft, put them in this container to get a better pic of them...

This one lives in his basement, hes very young but about 4ft and hes 7lbs...

Another cellar dweller at over 4ft long, with his 3 buddies, not counting the other hots..