Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Everyone,

I'm such a newbie! Can anyone explain the difference between a Piebald and a Ringer. It looks to my untrained eye that a Ringer is a VERY Low White Piebald.

Also, will a Low White Piebald breed Low White Piebalds only, or is a Piebald a Piebald with the amount of White being totally non-gene specific?

I was reading a great thread below about the future of Ball Pythons. This got me thinking... if I invest my money in 100% Hets, then I can breed my own Albinos and Piebalds. The Normals and Hets I could sell to recoup my initial investment. Plus, it'll be a fun long-term project.

Thanks Again,
Chris =)

Check out the browns that does help. A ringer has the same coloration as a normal. The above is a low white pied.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

I still can't really tell the difference. I visited Ralph Davis Reptiles and browsed through his collection. I can't really see normalcy in either Piebald or Ringer. In fact, he states that his Ringer has produced 100% Het Piebalds. This claim just adds to my confusion. Arrrggghhhhh!

Chris

What did he breed to his ringer? A pied? If so he is correct. If you breed a pied to a normal you will get 100% het pieds.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
The home of the singing snakes!

"will a Low White Piebald breed Low White Piebalds only, or is a Piebald a Piebald with the amount of White being totally non-gene specific?"

So far all true genetic pieds appear to be compatible with each other (as far as I know). It's been said that the amount of white is random and having not produced a single pied myself yet much less enough to look for trends I can't confirm or deny that. There was a rumor on another forum that Peter Kahl was selling off all of his plain belly female het pieds first which makes me wonder if he was planning to keep the ringer bellied ones as breeders for some reason. It was just a rumor and even if it is true there could be any number of other explanations but it got me wondering if the hets that show more of the pied condition might be expected to tend to throw higher white pieds.

"if I invest my money in 100% Hets, then I can breed my own Albinos and Piebalds."

It might take you a while starting with a het pied to a het albino but with some luck you might be able to produce albino pied the next generation. It is always possible, if not particularly likely, that two morphs can't be combined. The two genes might be close together on the same chromosome making it difficult to get more than two copies total between the two genes in the same animal. The combination could be lethal. Or one morph might cover the appearance of the other (not likely in this case but perhaps more likely in something like leucistic and striped).

Oh! I didn't mean that i wanted to breed a Piebald with an Albino. I meant that I could breed two 100% Het Piebalds to each other to get my Piebald, then do the same with the two albinos. Of course, an Albino Piebald would be super cool! =)

Thanks,
Chris

If you did want to start an albino pied project you wouldn't have to wait for when you can afford or produce your own albino and pied. If you trust the ringer belly marker seen in some het pieds you could reduce your initial investment by using a marker het pied rather than a homozygous pied and pick out the marker double hets. Unfortunately I haven't seen good evidence of a marker in het albinos so you would probably need an albino for such a project or take a bigger blind long shot with a het albino.

with no actual scientific studies to show which chromosomes are effected by each morph you never know what the combination will be between the two of them. a perfect example of this is Ralph Davis's attempt at lavender pieds this year. he bred 2 double hets together and produced a wicked looking pumpkin colored snake. it will be several yrs to know if that is the combo of lavender/pied. if it isn't then my dream of creating a high lavender pied is still alive. if it is that is still one awesome looking snake.
now back to the original question. can you make your money back starting with hets. absolutely!!!! remember ball pythons don't produce the monster clutches of eggs like the retics/burms do. even with the large number of breeders out there only a limited amount of visibly morphs are produced each yr. it has taken many many years for the large breeders to obtain enough albino's and pied's to where they don't need to hold any females back for themselves. i myself should produce albino's next season or the season after that if my female slows down on her feeding. i paid roughly 1k for my pair. even if it's 2 yrs before i produce any albino's the price should still be over 1k. if i sell one then i made my money back. with my pieds i have started with 2 unrelated het males from different breeders ( ralph davis and alan bosch). should make poss hets next season then 2 yrs after that by breeding unrelated poss het females to the males produce pieds. so in 4 yrs i should have some pieds. if i am able to produce more than 1.1 i will sell the rest. so say i produce 2.2. i will sell 1.1 at approx 1.5k each and make twice what i paid for my males. pretty darn good to have a hobby that can pay for itself. ok that was long and probably been said many times before just not from me, lol. oh yeah i'll be getting some ghost hets or maybe a ghost male in the future and a pastel from a friend after the comming up season. god balls are fun.
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2.0 het pied
1.1 het albino
1.7 normal
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 damn taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

"a perfect example of this is Ralph Davis's attempt at lavender pieds this year. he bred 2 double hets together and produced a wicked looking pumpkin colored snake"

I think it is just a classic jungle. They show up every now and then for no apparent reason. Of course it could be some effect of being a het for one or the other or a double het. At least it will be a nice looking animal to grow up and breed to test it's genetics.

Here is a classic jungle 25% chance het stripe that I hatched out a few years ago. He looked pretty awesome as a baby and is still pretty interesting. Unfortunately it wasn't a female but I still can't resist trying to breed him eventually just in case.