Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ive heard anywhere from 60's to the 80's one sounds too low and the other too high, im keeping them in the high seventies. And is a brumation period of less light and cooler temperatures required to trigger a breeding responce. If so how low of a temperature is exceptable without compromising the health of these animals? thanks in advance
ASM

My albig has temps ranging from 145 basking spot surface to 90 around the basking area to 80 at the cool end and 58 at the bottom of its burrow. I try to give it as much of a variety of temps so it can cool off or warm up as fast and as often as it wants. I run my lights 24/7
I don't know about burmation, I don't see Fluffy missing out on a meal that long.
Hope this helps.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

They use 150f or higher basking spots, 86-90f warm air temps, and 40-70f cooler temps. The idea is to offer those choices 24/7 so your monitor can pick when it wants or needs them not when you feel like giving a single temp or condition. Monitors use burrows, dirt, rock and wood hides, etc to accomplish some of these things. They also dont want to be dried out or soaking wet, so you offer them again the choices to pick from.

Find some info pertaining to them thats not recycled trash written down over 40 years ago and then passed on book by book as fact for too long.
Brumation occurs when the animal cannot digest food properly, cannot obtain enough food for life events, and needs to survive until those conditions return. They are wide awake, they are alert, they are just slowed down alot. They also come above ground from their burrows any day the temps rise to usable levels to look for food, etc. Brumation is not needed in captivity nor is a trigger for breeding, breeding is triggered by the presence of usable resources in abundance, when survival is alot easier, thats the difference between surviving and thriving.

Heres a pic of one of my monitor this winter in 40f temps, active isnt she, she only spends an hour at a time outdooors then, she has 24/7 basking temps between 156-170 all year. I hear about people so called brumating their animals at room temps or just below, come on they need to get some common sense and understand what the animal needs not what they want to impose. Brumation occurs at much lower temps than 60-70f. Theres still some snow in the yard, understand she doesnt live out there but she goes out there daily. Just as her cage offers 68-86f air temps and very high basking temps, like all of my reptile cages do.

Hi Shvar,

If Brumation is not necessary then why do they do it?? African varanids are the only ones to habitually brumate on a regular seasonal basis = perhaps not every year (except V. griseus which MUST DO THIS!!), but they do do this - my captives went through it annually, with no change in their temps except I altered the photo-period somewhat. Brumation is a physiological aspect of modifying their energy needs, using their fat-body organs to fascilitate nutrition while they pursue females/males for reproduction and do not have to both feed and mate simultaneously... wouldn't you say both of these aspects ARE necessary for their survival and welfare? They go from rotund in spring, to somewhat skinny and sometimes emmaciated, to robust again, depending on food, mates and climate....this same group of African Varanus also have no dermal oscicles, whereas all other Varanus do...and they brumate, whereas the others do not.
cheers,
mbayless

Winter it will never brumate, yet they brumate in the wild sooner and longer than any other snake in the same climate. Why is it that nobody in the past 15 years who has sucessfully bred monitors including the elusive bosc monitor forces them to brumate? Im just asking why this is? Brumation is a survival technique, if the weather never cools down enough they dont brumate. A friend was digging around a house foundation in the middle of winter in the dirt below the snow, a below the surface they found active ringneck and garter snakes around a well, both are noted by the experts to be religious to brumation then reproduction, yet they also reproduced the same time as their wild counterparts every year, what triggered their reproduction? The ground around the well was much warmer all year around allowing them to be active all year. Availability of food and resources that are required to accomplish this reproduction.

This I can tell you. I don't read books, or really even papers on monitors. I only know from what I am personally experiencing. I got a Griseus 2 years ago. It ate amazingly from when I got it, up until about September. Then it just stopped eating. The conditions had, as in basking gradient and temps were always right about the same throughout that whole time. I didn't know what was wrong, so I took him to the vet, which gave him a couple vitamin shots to try to stimulate eating, nothing. After about 3 weeks of not eating, the vet put me on a force feeding scedule. It was terrible. I could tell it was torturing him, and didn't continue that for very long, as I couldn't stand to put him through it. I asked all around for advice, and tried everything I could with no luck. I finally read a couple papers on them, asd learned supposedly went through a hibernation period. I was out of options, and did what I had read others doing, put him through a "forced" brumation at 50 degrees which killed him in a couple months.

Then early last year, I got a pair this time. They ate awesome all year long. Gained weight, length, and shed many times (books said only twice a year). Then around September, they too started not eating. I thought to myself, forced brumation does not work, it kills, but what about providing the option for it. I had only one basking light on, and lowered the watt enought to have a smaller area, but still same temps. Within 2 days, they both dug under a slab of rock, and never came out for 4 months. No eating, drinking, nothing. Then in about Feb., I saw the male out basking one day. A day later, the female was out too. Neither of them looked like they lost any weight. Almost the exact same as when they went down. I bought some live mice the next day, and they both ate till full. The feedings started regularly again, and they started to grow, gain weight and shed again.

Now, about 3 weeks ago, they stopped feeding again. So I again adjusted the basking and ambients, and they again retreated under the slab again. They have not come out since, and I doubt they will till around Feb. again.

My point is, why are they doing this? I am not forcing anything. I am still providing options to which they used all year, but they are not using them now. Why? What's even stranger, is that a friend in Florida has a pair also, and they are almost matched exactally on scedules of not feeding, going down or whatever you want to call it, and emerging, and I'm in Illinois. Even stranger, is both of ours started breeding a week or two after the "down" period.

I say almost NOTHING is for certain about these creatures. We still have a lot to learn apparently.

Just some food for thought

-Jeff

And as the topic started V. Albigularis DO NOT NEED TO BRUMATE, unless there is no food available or temps do not allow for activity.

I don't care what species of montior this is about. All I saw was the title that "brumation is for survival, not a trigger for breeding". For you, things seem to be this way, or no way at all. You seemed to stop learning, and fall back on what others say as the final, end all explination. So, If brumation is a survival technique, what possibly would my monitors need to survive from? In the wild when it's done with some species, it's because of extreme temps, lack of food, etc... I don't give extreme temps, and there was never a lack of food, so what's up? They went down the same time as last year, the same time as my buddy in Florida, and I never changed the temps until after they stopped feeding and went down.

Why did the brumation period trigger both my friends and my Griseus to breed when they didn't do it any other time of the year?

Also, I would love to see a pic of a 2 year old Griseus that hasn't had to go through hibernation. Please, ask who you have heard of to see a pic of his/hers adult Griseus, or better yet post it here.

I'm not saying I'm right, but just saying what I have experienced with all Griseus I've owned, and my buddies also. So there has to be at least some truth to it.

The original topic was that Albigs dont need to brumate they do so whent they have to. In the wild griseus brumate for more than a few months, in fact was it around 8 months of the year? I cant remeber for sure on the length but its alot longer than in captivity. Have you ever seen albigs brumate when offered constant conditions? I have never kept Griseus, therefore I couldnt tell you if it can be done or not, but I have never seen any Albigs, Niles, Ornates, or bosc brumate with consistant conditions.

thank you all for your input, im too weary about reducing their overall temps that low for a couple of months, but i will definately try to start reducing the photo period.

Ask someome who has had them reproduce like FR, Dan Turner, ProExotics, Rob Faust, the st Pierres if their animals are brumated? Why force an animal to do something that can kill them and is only done because the temps drop and food is not abundant. They do it because their metabolic needs drop and they dont need to burn as much fat while brumating, yet they are still awake, they are still active when it does warm up enough. If it warms up to usable temps in the middle of winter they come out and are basking, hunting, yet it drops they go back to it, how does that signal reproduction?

Ask someome who has had them reproduce like FR, Dan Turner, ProExotics, Rob Faust, the st Pierres if their animals are brumated?

I can't speak for the others and everyone does everything a little different .Every single White throat /Sav we have owned over the years (wild caught or captive bred ) has hibernated every winter if they were over 2' by fall.

Why force an animal to do something that can kill them and is only done because the temps drop and food is not abundant.

We don't force any of our animals to do anthing . We give them options and they choose to hibernate on their own .

enough. If it warms up to usable temps in the middle of winter they come out and are basking, hunting, yet it drops they go back to it, how does that signal reproduction?

South Florida doesn't have really have a winter and a set temperature really has little to do with hibernation in these two species (the only time it gets cold here is when we get an artic blast from the north and they never last more than one or two nights at most and we run heat those nights , there are pig blankets in their hides that are set on rheostats to automatically come on when the temperature falls - to give you an idea of how cold it is here I don't own a winter coat and I wear shorts and a t-shirt 365 days a year ) Yet these lizards still choose to hibernate and they are so deep into hibernation that it is hard to tell that they are alive . Once they awaken in the spring you can not tell they had ever stopped feeding or that they hibernated , they don't lose weight .
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

As Stella says, they are not forced to brumate and yet they do it anyways....I have seen this with all of my V.e./V.a. animals, and V.n./V.o. will do this when water is not available and climate is dry; there have many studies on this aspect of their biology in the wild, and in laboratory to understand this phenomena. I have 1 photo of a V.e. actually walking around "sleep-walking", eyes closed tight, yet walking around while brumating. My big female albigularis would stay virtually motionless except for her eyes for 3-4 months straight; sometimes she would go for a walk in middle of night, but usually motionless, very relaxed, brumating...they do this as it is entirely apart of their physiology. Some loose weight (those animals which did achieve ample food stores) and those who do not (who ate adequaltely)...constant temp, humidity, food sources, and yet they continue to annually do this...why??

Cheers,
mbayless

Dan turner is brumating his animals, He is one of many who i turn to for advice.

He wasnt before, and how does a BT in an 80 degree building with a basking light running for heat also brumate when they live on a few inches of cyprus mulch? He uses plastic covered cat litter boxes and things like that for hides. I have his video so I know what his cages are and how they are equipped.
I was reading through the new monitor book "Varanoid Lizards of the World" page 92 time of activity section of V.Albigularis. A quote "winter inactivity seems to be the result of lack of available prey, as experimentally increasing foodsupply resulted in a 30-fold increase in activity (Phillips1995)". This is straight from another expert (or Mister science type) that states in easy enough English that brumation is a survival tactic not a signal for anything else, if resources are there they do not brumate.
Ive never had a monitor brumate, why, because they dont have to, they get available resources all year long, even if I dont give them it they dont brumate, temps irregardless.
I never heard Dan say he let his animals brumate, he said he kept them consistant all year. So even if so 2 out of the whole group say they do, what about the others? Why is it the most consitant breeders dont brumate their monitors? Because its a survival tactic not a needed signal.

"winter inactivity seems to be the result of lack of available prey, as experimentally increasing foodsupply resulted in a 30-fold increase in activity (Phillips1995)".

There may be a lack of prey in the wild when they estivate but there is certainly no lack of prey here in the winter . My rodent and insect production almost triples in the winter months.
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

No one else sees it happen unless theres a lack of food and temps but you say you see it happen, well then your either leaving something out or your winter temps are too low for what they need. Why is it that no one else sees them brumate when they offer year round consistant temps and food? Yet in the wild when food sources are low during brumation they mate when there is about 2 months until the rainy season, males go in search of mates during the dry season with 2 months left only they are searching a smaller area then they normally hunt for food, they do not go completely inactive, they are less active, alert, will eat when food is available and act completly normal when food is available in abundance no matter what time of the year it is.

What's so hard to understand about we supply heat and there is no shortage of food here in the winter ?

I'm not even going to explain it , you wouldn't believe it anyway .
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Stella St.Pierre
www.bluetegu.com

I offered what happens, how, why, etc. I explained brumation and how it applies to albigs. Explain what you saw happen and give your thoughts on why. Explain why your albigs brumate and others dont, what is the reason for it as your observation?

i dont know when he started but this is the info he has been giving me via email, after i contacted him after seeing his site, i ordered the video as well.

My wc female albig went into some sort of reclusion or slump last season from september to about mid spring. She went from eating anything everyday, to on average about one small prey a week. She then snapped out of it during spring, and began to eat voraciously again. No dirt was offered to her and temps were relatively constant throughout the whole winter.This year she's outsdoors 24-7 instead of indoors, with two 40 gallon dirtdigboxes and mulch as substrate . We're in mid september can't wait to see what she does this year.

I do not hibernate or brumate monitors of any kind. I perfer to offer a wide range of temps. I have no problem with lows in sixties. I do not like lows about 75F. Not for breeding.

In some weird way, I do not attempt to breed monitors, that is, I do nothing, out of the ordinary, like changing temps or litecycle, or rain cycle. I set them up, I feed them, I protect them from high temps(a problem here) and protect them from cold temps(also a problem here) I recieve eggs when they lay them.

Our whitethroats have laid in every season but summer. I believe its simply too hot then.

Its been our experience with monitors, that when a female is ready, she cycles, I do not care what season it is. Thanks FR

I guess im just all caught up in it all, These particular lizards are both new to my collection, so i will just provide everything they need and see what happens, thank you all for your input, i have much observing to do.

Theres a key phrase in your statement, it is, "i will just provide everything they need and see what happens". Everything they need, usable temps, usable substrate, usable food, etc., but nowhere is brumation needed. The truth Ive run into by experience and dealing with people in the reptile industry is that those who try to brumate animals are either doing something very very wrong and think its gonna help or they are trying to save money on food. Nowhere will you find an accurate statement that says an Albig needs to brumate.

thank you everyone for all the info, i appreciate it more than you think, more than anything i was just trying to keep my monitors health and well being in mind, Im working on a tight budget and dont have much room for error, so if keeping them fed and hot will keep them healthy and alive, by gosh thats what im going to do.
scott
baltimore Md
GO RAVENS