Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have 2 eggs due to hatch in mid-October. 1 of them looks perfect. Here's a pic of the other one.

The white powder is not mold...it's foot powder to prevent mold.

Please tell me there's a chance that this dented one might hatch.

Thoughts?

It is not unusual for Gila eggs to begin to dent a few weeks prior to hatching. Under my conditions of incubation, some dent and others don’t. Having said that, there are two times that eggs will dent. One is as discussed above—normal maturation of the eggs. The other is lack of adequate humidity or a dry substrate that is able to wick moisture from the eggs (vermiculite may do that).

Just guessing from the photo and info provided, I would suspect the pictured egg is too dry. Perhaps you could provide more specific information about your incubation conditions (especially humidity and moisture level in substrate). The egg still appears viable, but if the conditions aren’t correct, I would modify them now.

By the way, I am not a fan of using anti-fungals. The organisms that grow on bad eggs are ubiquitous. All eggs are exposed to these organisms. However, they only grow on bad eggs. Certainly it is a bit more complicated than this, but I would rather optimize the environment the eggs of the eggs to keep them healthy, rather then try chemical means to fight such organisms. Just my point of view.

Mark
www.DrSeward.com

Mark seward wrote: "The other is lack of adequate humidity or a dry substrate that is able to wick moisture from the eggs (vermiculite may do that)."

That is a problem with vermiculite that I have experienced over the years also. I found that even using dry vermiculite does not mitigate the problem. Dry vermiculite will absorb moisture from the air and then later if humidity levels fall for some reason, it makes up the loss by drawing moisture from the eggs. The rate is determined by how compacted the vermiculite is.
I should state at this point I'm very experienced incubating deserticolous tortoise eggs and certain turtles as my screen name implies, but I do not have experience incubating heloderm eggs. I think however that the incubation fundamentals are the same ie using humid air to control temperature and tune moisture loss from the eggs.

At this stage of the game with his eggs denting due to being too dry woud it be best to ;

- moisten the vermiculite slightly and cover the egg with a damp paper towel until it filled out

- change it over to dry perlite with a damp paper towel over it until it fills out ?

If the moisture level ISN'T the problem here and the egg was denting as a normal course of deveopment, would the slight moistening of the substrate cause any problems ?

If it were two weeks out from pipping I wouldn't be concerned with the denting ... 4 - 5 weeks from the hatch date seems too early to be denting to me and the moisture level would seem to be the problem. Have you had them start to dent that long before hatching ?

Hi Jim,

I hope things are going well for you—it’s been way too long since we’ve talked.

I hesitate a little about being too specific with my recommendations, not knowing exactly what the environmental conditions are now. However, if they were my eggs, I would get them off the vermiculite immediately and get them in to near 100% humidity. I would prefer to do that rather than increasing the vermiculite moisture (although increasing the vermiculite moisture would probably work also—it’s just much harder to maintain appropriate moisture levels). Also, my recommended approach would not be any problem for the eggs whether or not the denting is a sign of inappropriate moisture loss.

I agree with you completely, Jim. If it were two weeks out from hatching, denting would be completely normal. Four-five weeks out is not normal. Also, to my eyes the egg does look too dry—it looks like the humidity around the eggs too low (the shell itself seems too dry). However, understand that viewing an Internet photo is not the best way judge that.

Mark
www.DrSeward.com

I've always disliked vermiculite and always used fresh spagnum for snake eggs. But when I started with the Gila eggs I went with vermiculite as I didn't think I had another choice.

I have since tried the batting and dry perlite and both gave me the opposite results you guys have gotten. Only hours after putting them onto dry perlite I had eggs that looked like the one in the picture that started this thread. Only putting them back onto dampened vermiculite with a tented damp paper towel over them brought them back. How fast they started to collapse once on the batting or perlite was scarey - enough so that I see a cup of perlite I see a dried up Gila egg.

I don't know why but it just doesn't work for me. I have the eggs set up in separate cups in a large rubbermaid. They are on a plastic grate over water/perlite mix with a glass cover in an incubator heated to 82. It should work like it does for the rest of you , but it's been a potential disaster each time I tried dry substrate incubation. And it didn't take long either ; a few hours and they started to go.

I still don't like using the vermiculite and having to constantly check it and add water via syringe but the other methods didn't work for me.

Jim,

When you tried the eggs dry, do you know what the humitity level was? How much ventilation did you have to the egg container? Did you have forced air in the incubator? Did you use a "box in a box" for the eggs?

What I like about the technique is there is no need to constantly check the eggs and add water to vermiculite. I set up the eggs and usually don't have to mess with them for the entire incubation.

Mark

How do you guys usually measure humidity, other than using wet bulb and dry bulb thermometers? Does anyone use a battery powered, remote sensor, LED read humidity indicator?

That what appealed to me about the dry set up - it was set and done with but for whatever reason I can't get it to work here - at least in my incubator.

I've been using the 'box in a box' technique for years ... on everything and that has cut down alot on servicing the eggs , especially colubrids. Often I don't have to do anything to those the whole time.

My incubator is one I built and is 60 " long 36" tall and 24" deep. This is divided in half so two differnt 30" incubation temps can be used at the same time ( python and colubrids ). The whole thing except the front is lined with 1" styrofoam for insulation ; the front doors are 1/4" plate glass. Each section is heated with one strip of 11" wide Flex watt running top to bottom on the back and is controlled bt a Helix. This strip can get me a temp of 90 on a cold winter day if I need it ( in winter I use it for a nursery ).

One big box ( 16 X 22 X 9 tall rubbermaid )without ventilation is set up with about 1 1/2 " water/perlite mix and a plastic grate about 1 1/2 " over this water/perlite 'slush'. Snake eggs are put in other containers as a whole cluth and set on the grate with out lids. I use either spagnum (when I can get to the Pine Barrens for the 'good stuff') but often it's too early in the year for that nice, green stuff I always liked to use and hate the crap I've bough in garden centers. So, instead I've been using damp vermiculite that I always hated because at a glance you can't tell if it's bone dry or wet - it always looks the same. But in this 'two box' set up , it has worked well.

The only difference I do with the Gila eggs is set the eggs up separately individual low, deli cups as in past experiance maybe one would start to dent somewhere along the line and some special attention would have to be done ; damp paper towel over, dampen the vermiculite or sometimes put a larger deli cup over it to trap the humidity until it filled out again. Why this would happen to one or two and not all I don't know - their side by side , same shelf , etc.

One thing I don't have is the forced air you mention.

When I tried the batting a couple years ago , the eggs immediately started to dent hours after being set up and until I put them into a dampened substrate they weren't looking good at all. I know the humidity level is up as I incubate Horned Viper (Cersates cerastes) eggs exactaly the same way (but as a cluth in one container) and they remain perfect through out the entire incubation period - and those paper-thin eggs are very prone to drying out in a hurry - the first time I had them I almost screwed up by setting them up too dry.

This year I tried the dry perlite and it was the same story ... immediate collapse - so damp vermiculite is what I'm still using. I'd love this problem to be solved as I hate sweating out the situation for the long incubation time.

Sorry for the long post but from my description do you see anything that might need 'fixing' ??

Thanks.

Jim,

I would be interested in knowing what the humidity is in the Rubbermaid container. It should be near or at saturation. If it were, adding a damp paper towel over the eggs would have no effect.

Keep the water level in the perlite below the top level of the perlite. This will create greater surface area for the water to evaporate.

Also, I would consider putting the eggs in a container as a clutch and have minimal ventilation to the inner-most egg container.

If it works here at 7300 feet, there is no reason I can emagine it wouldn't work there.

Mark
www.DrSeward.com

Yeah, good point ... it never occured to be that the paper towel it shouldn't have any effect if things were right .... DUUUHHH!

I never had a decent hydrometer ... I have used two of those $50.00 Radio Shack combo-type in the past but the two of them never gave me the same reading ( temp or humidity ) so I never trusted them anyway besides going bad in no time. What type do you use / suggest ? I know what 'too wet' is with eggs but I just always judged the humidity level by tight, full eggs and if the Horned viper eggs (which are more sensitive to lower humidity than any other eggs I've delt with) didn't collapse , it was good.

My water level is definately not below the perlite - it's equal or above. Would adding more perlite or reducing the water actually help the situation ? When I first started using this two box system I didn't even use perlite - just water. I actually added the perlite to control the spashing of the water that would happen when I'd pull the box out to check things.

When I see the box with the water and perlite , no ventilation holes and a piece of glass as a lid all kept at 82 degrees ... I can't imagine it being any thing but 'high humidity'. How could it be increased ; a smaller or lower 'outside box' to crowd the eggs and provide less air space ( thought about this but always was concerned about too wet of a condition occuring real quick ) Would changing the perlite/water ratio really help ???

Thanks for you time trying to figure out what I'm missing in sucessfully copying your 'dry incubation' method. I do appreciate it and hopefully you're also answering some questions of others who are tuning in here to this discussion.

The perlite is to do two things, the least of which is to keep the water from sloshing around. The most important function is to increase the surface area from which the water can evaporate. If other variables are constant (such as temperature), there are two things to consider when trying to create near 100% humidity in the egg container. One is the surface area of the water and the other is the volume of air to humidify. As an example, if you placed the Rubbermaid container open in a room, it would do little to raise the humidity in that room. On the other hand, if you placed a foot deep of perlite and water on the floor of the same room, it would raise the humidity in the room (for those wanting to test it, I accept no responsibility).

You can just use water in the Rubbermaid, but having perlite with a level of water below the top of the perlite will greatly increase the surface area. In other words, more water will be able to evaporate, increasing the humidity. The actual ratio of water to perlite doesn’t matter, as long as the water level is below the top of the perlite.

In addition to increasing the surface of evaporation, you will want to limit the volume of air in the container. The easiest way to do this is to add more perlite and water until you just have enough room for your egg containers. I also prefer having the egg container covered with only a few holes for ventilation. That will keep any condensation from dripping on the eggs (even if you don’t have any condensation now, you probably will with these changes.

Remember increasing humidity will be directly related to the surface of evaporation and inversely related to the volume of air to be humidified.

I hope I didn’t provide too much detail. Let me know if I can explain anything more clearly.

Mark

Thanks for clearing that up for me ...

I'm going to set up a box with these changes and experimant so it's ready for next year since I'm hoping to have beaded eggs also. I'm not messing with this years as all looks good - but like always will be sweating bullets until I see hatching.

Was there a reason you went from the batting to perlite as a dry substrate in you set up ?

I do want to check the humidity as I experiment with the new set up so I'm wondering what type hydrometer you use. I see most guys use those Radio Shack models that I personaly didn't like (both gave me different reading) so in checking online I see endless variations priced from $35.00 to $600.

Is your humidity gage built into your incubator or is it portable, hand held, etc ? I see one hand held model that is similar to the temp guns we all use ... any thoughts or expertiance with those ?

Thanks again for your input with all of this.

Jim,

I use the dry perlite under the eggs only because it's easier. At first I used the polyester because I wanted to be certain to use something that wouldn't pull any moisture out of the eggs. Dry perlite seems to accomplish the same thing.

I don't have a hygrometer that I am confident in. I have used the Radio Shack units you mentioned, but I always hold the values a little suspect. I really don't worry about the humidity at this point, because I know how my setup works. If I changed things, I would be more concerned about checking the humidity.

Let me know how the setup changes go for you.

Mark

Hi ;

I was just curious about how that egg is looking and if you tried anything with it or decided to ride it out since the other looked good ? I've had eggs barely start to dent a month out, but nothing like your is showing. When mine would do that they would 'pop back out' as soon as the cover was removed to check them so the dents were slight.

But I have a friend who also does Gilas and he often told his eggs dented quite a bit way before hatching so hopefully yours is still OK. Best of luck with them.

I just saw the picture of your egg today. If it was supposed to hatch around mid October I would say it is good. Let me know.
Take care,
HorridumAngeli
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