Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Todays examples are of a female croc monitor, V.salvadorri, that we hatched here.

In the first pic, she just hatched, in the second pic, she is 8 months old.

During her first 8 months, I estimate, she increased her bone mass over 1000 times. She was kept indoors with only a incandesent 25w bulb, then later, a 65w incandesent bulb.

Also, the lites in her case, are on in the day and off at night. Unfortunately, I keep forgetting to reset the time clocks so at times they are off by a few hours.

Her diet was and is to this day, mice.

Fortunately these monitors I show do not read the posts from the mister sciences(to me know as= MS's) So they forget they are suppose to die. They also forget they are kept in completely wrong conditions, so they continue to progress nicely.

About the name calling, Its entirely possible that I am what they call me. But I feel that has nothing to do with the progress or results our monitor husbandry allows. So please, keep the name calling to a minimum. I believe the mission here is to explain the monitors, in this case the pictures I post, not explain me. As I will never meet or care to meed most of you. Again, what I am is off no concern. The results of our husbandry are of concern.

In other words, explain the pictures if you can. If not, do not attack me. ITs kinda like blaming a book because it contains information contray to your beliefs. My advice here is, don't read the book if you do not want to hear it. Thats goes for you MS's.

The continuing question is, why aren't we experiencing any of the maladies that the MS's say will happen. That is the question.

My question for them is, WHY NOT? Enjoy the pics, more to come, FR

Bah! Just keep posting pics, thats really what this particular forum is good at. (Even if the format is terrible) Your monitors look great and healthy, too bad some people can't just accept that and move on.

I must say though, that yellow goulds (from a couple threads ago) I find annoying, my poor goulds are ugly in comparison, but they do have great personalities. hahahahaha

Thanks!

--Robert

Everyone does Something different that works for them and their animals. If we were all to provide or try to provide the same conditions as someone else alot of information wouldn't be known today. Great Work Frank! Keep up the good work!
-----
John Light
Pristine Pythons
ristinePythons@Hotmail.com" target="_blank">Contact Me

New Web Site Comming Soon!!!

Great pics Frank and thanks for adressing the name calling issue. I'd sure like to see/read a discussion on this topic between you and the "MS's" without the negative propaganda so that people questioning such topics can gather enough information to make an informed decision.

Im not blaming you for starting it but when you call some one an idiot for believing what they've been taught, you kinda leave them no choice but to get on the defensive which tends to take a topic from one thing to another.

I remember you saying(awhile ago) something along the lines of "its not about right and wrong" ,I took that to mean that there is more than one way to get the same results which i felt was true. If thats the case, why does it matter what these "MS's" preach if it works for them and doesnt harm anyones animals?

I think you guys are on the same side and just using different approaches but your obvious dislike for one another wont allow to to back each others findings which both very well could work.

Although i do like your challengeing approach, questioning their findings and such. But that gets taking out of context pretty quickly and danced around like indians around a campfire. Maybe if someone elsed asked the same questions we would actually get somewhere?

Sorry for the rambling but really would like to see you guys have a conversation on a topic and actually see it through to the end. Who knows... you both might learn something.

Ps- Are you still breeding crocs?

Cheers
-----
James Grigsby
Newark,Delaware

Animals Kept include:
0.0.1 Varanus Salvator (Gator)
0.1.3 Varanus Exanthematicus (Adisa "long term captive" other 3 "yet to be named hatchlings"
2.0 Ferrets (Chaos & Kasha)
1.0 Cat (George)

You are misunderstanding something very important. While I am using my experience and results to show a point. The MS's, are not, they use other peoples work, or papers, and take them out of context(as you have seen) They have no or little experience of their own. Which reads as, no results.

The real point that needs to be understood is, Its our results compared to their theory. It should be, our results against their results. Or our theory against their theory. Understand if that was the case, they would clearly fall short. So of course they resort to confusion and name calling. I believe, they know what they are doing and are only out to confuse things, not clear them up.

Please remember, a theory is a proposition that has yet to be proved. We show results of our theory, therefore its no longer theory. The MS's gather combinations of others work, with by difinition is theory and has not been proved.

All I ever ask, is for proof. Its common to call names if you cannot provide proof. Thanks FR

You're saying you vs. them = doers vs. thinkers.

Thats well understood. But i do not believe that their logic is harmful to monitors is all. Some of it anyway, May actually work as well as your/our results. But i guess like you say theres only one way to find that out.

I know Sam(for example) has monitors and if he practices what he preaches then it will be very easy for him to offer proof. I have not seen the proof but im giving him the benefit of the doubt because the person asking for it is someone he doesnt care to much for and probably cares less about what he thinks.

On the flip side of the coin maybe he has nothing worth while to show or his animals arent as healthy as yours, who knows?

But i dont believe pics tell a whole story anyways, an animal can look healthy on the exterior and die a day later. So even if he did produce pics to go along with his theories, what would it prove besides he's a good photographer if they looked half way decent that is.

My point is, half the things he talks about cant be proven by looking at an animal outwardly which makes it even that much harder to offer any such proof. But i guess what you are saying is... to believe it without proof is just plain ignorant, and that i do agree with.

Cheers
-----
James Grigsby
Newark,Delaware

Animals Kept include:
0.0.1 Varanus Salvator (Gator)
0.1.3 Varanus Exanthematicus (Adisa "long term captive" other 3 "yet to be named hatchlings"
2.0 Ferrets (Chaos & Kasha)
1.0 Cat (George)

Its impressive that a 25w bulb can create the conditions you say are good for monitors, 125-135 degree basking spots, over the animals entire body...with a large gradients available for use. Doesn't sounds like a very big cage if thats the case.

Seems like potentially bad living conditions to me. So does keeping an animal in complete darkness. To each their own. Haha, I'm sure the aspca would love to hear more about keeping diurnal living creatures in dark boxes.

Although you never did mention that your non-growing non-breeding animal was alive..

O

Maybe you should try to consider some other factors before posting. Did he say how many bulbs he was using? Did he say what the size of the enclosure was? Did he note what the other temps were? My point here is for me living in Ohio, a 25W bulb will not do, but it may work in Arizona. Maybe asking some questions and getting some facts straight before you start assuming and posting will better lend to your credibility. I personally don't know what his setup is, but he appears to have good results.

Beleive me it was good.

.

The reply that was so good that you did not post it . I'm not trying to insight you, just give you some advice that I feel would help you to be taken a little more seriously.

I did post the reply, however what came after my reply was not fit for the forum I suppose, and was moderated out of existance by the website owners.

You didn't insight me. I simply went on to explain how it didn't matter what the cage was like, if he only used one bulb. Which he did refer to in singular form.

>>I did post the reply, however what came after my reply was not fit for the forum I suppose, and was moderated out of existance by the website owners.
>>
>>You didn't insight me. I simply went on to explain how it didn't matter what the cage was like, if he only used one bulb. Which he did refer to in singular form.

Dude...........

You seem smart, but lack matruity. If you gripe about others poor grasp of the English language, you should be articualte enough not to use language that would not be deleted from this forum. With that said, I'm done talking to you. Good luck to you and your monitors.
-----
hbailey

0.0.1 argus monitor
1.1 butterfly agama (L. Reevesi)

From what I've read, no one said not using UV lights will result in death (if someone has said such, I missed it, and they are dorks for making that claim). I've noticed they have all said your monitor will live, and may appear just 'fine' without UV lighting, in part this may be because the lizards have other sources of UV exposure (such as incandescent light bulbs).

The key here, is saying why NOT use UV lighting? Just because the lizards can survive without such and may appear healthy, does not mean you should avoid their use. It does not mean you should necessarily use them, either.

What it does say... it is probably a good idea to use them, since we haven't knowledge of any deleterious effects from lack of UV exposure.

In all the poop flinging, it seems the message from Sam et al got a little skewed.

- Clay -

kinda nice post. But you should reread the thread, if you follow marks stuff, he relates cancer/tumors, blab, blab, blab, etc. From papers not about monitors. So indeed he thinks not using uv bulbs is delerious.

Sam is not so clear, he says its needed and sometime in the futured all my monitors will be effected by that. At least he recognizes a healthy monitor when he sees one. The point is, we are past the future now. With no delerious effects. That is the result.

About using the bulbs, of course everyone can if they wish, but clearly that was not the question, The question was, ARE THEY NEEDED, or did you forget to read that part. My responce was directed at the question. As it should be, I suppose.

I never said, do not use them, I only said, they are not needed. That should be clear by now. Again, that was the question.

The secondary point is value, The price of these bulbs and their effectivness is in question. To pay a high price for a bulb that only lasts a month, most likely could be money better spend on other key components of husbandry. Like I mentioned below, a better food source, maybe a small freezeer kept filled with food stock, bigger cages, better nesting, a room for the monitors, a real incubator, instead of a bubble. You know the money could be used for necessary items. Or in my case a vacation, hahahahahahahahahaha

Thanks Clay, FR

crocs are the best...that female sure is good looking..when your ready to part with her you will let me know won't you??have fun Frank...billy