Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm a beginner at the varanid hobby and so I don't post much because my experience is limited to a single animal that has not achieved life events past maturation. This is my fault and something wrong with my own husbandry. This I can admit. I can also admit that owning a monitor wasn't exactly what I expected but it has also proven to be a challenge and something I will continue to grow and adapt into. I will continue to make mistakes and continue to learn. I know many have passed before me and many others will follow after me. There will be many theories and many successes but also alot of failures.

What everyone here is doing right now is saying "I'm right. You should listen to me.. Not to him..He's never proven a thing" and while I can agree with that it doesn't mean we all need to bicker and argue like 2nd graders over the jungle gym. Its human nature to disagree on many things. Its also human nature to be stubborn and unforgiving when we think we're right about something. This includes the whole idea about FR asking Sam to step up to the plate. Sam is going to continue to be stubborn and not post what results he's gotten simply because its now become principle for him to do so because its FR challenging him to do it. They rub each other the wrong way...thats never going to change.. What could resolve this.. neither of them is willing to do.. I can respect that in a way as well....does it advance this forum any really? No...but it does net the rest of us some beautiful monitor pictures we might not otherwise have seen and some scraps of knowledge from the people who are succeeding in this hobby if we can seperate that knowledge out from the general morass of mudslinging.

I personally believe that both aspects are important. Knowing what a monitor in the wild would do is just as important as knowing what an animal in captivity can be doing. Its all about potential and us providing the needed conditions for that potential to be met. I have yet to do so and I'm not naive or cocky enough to believe I will do with my first monitor. Thats not the way it works.. Not even with so many knowledgeable people posting so much valuable information since with the valuable information comes surplus information that is not needed. Whether or not Monitors NEED UV or if its even helpful at all...there are results out there that clearly state that, in the short term (Relatively speaking.. multiple generations is short term) that UV is not a necessary aspect of husbandry. However, results clearly show HEAT.. and high, consistant heat is essential. New keepers NEED to stay with what is absolutely essential to their husbandry in order to keep a healthy, productive monitor. Its only after they've achieved that.. that they should even begin thinking about experimenting with brumation or UV lights or anything else. I, myself, as a beginner, stick with what I've learned to be essential to the care of these animals... High Heat.. Deep dirt.. temperature ranges and as much food as the animal can utilize. And even with these absolute essentials I haven't gotten everything perfect obviously.

All these types of arguements do is spread around the name calling because gets involved. Its no longer really about the monitors as FR likes to say.. its all about who can win the arguement. The fact of the matter is no one is going to win because this arguement will continue until definitive testing is done on what is indeed "needed" by Monitors to thrive. Obviously, FR is closer to this ideal (at least in how much proof he's willing to show) than anyone else in the arguement is.

And now, just to keep this about Monitors, I do have a rather interesting question. Most monitors rely on heat to be able to move around and hunt for food.. They have to warm up in the mornings to be able to function. Recently, it was shown that Komodo Monitors do not have this same need. They can hunt actively in the morning despite a night time drop in temps that you would think, would make them sluggish like other monitors. Does this suggest some internal control over their warmth factor? To be able to conserve heat overnight in order to be able to take advantage of awakening prey? I don't know so I figured I'd include this question just to keep it legit and maybe to provide another direction for conversation.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

Hi, First, you are lucky we are arguing, because if we were not, you would get to look at the various choices available to you. Or my beautiful monitors.

You should also consider, you can and will do whatever you want. Neither of us have any control over you, nor do either of us want that.

My wish is Sam would actually provide things we understand and can use. That way, you and I have a choice, but as you should understand, I do not think he has anything to offer, just talk. But please, thats my opinion.

About people liking or not liking eachother, I do not know him and because of his attitude, care to know him. That does not mean hes a bad person. In my opinion, he has no imagination, which I have too much of.

You last paragraph is nice. As its my experience that our outdoor monitors, want to feed, very early in the mourning, while they are still cool.

I feel you are being misled a bit, that KD and my outdoor monitors burrow in places that hold the heat needed to hunt and feed. Once those temperatures drop below that, they will no longer hunt upon emergance, then as they drop lower, they will no longer emerge from their burrows/hides/holes, etc.

Once they feed, they normally find very hot areas to speed up digestion. Normally in nature, they do not need to bask to do this. For instance, they know where a large very hot boulder is and go under it. You know, use it like a hot rock, hahahahahahaha. Thanks FR

If its any consulation at all, what you are describing is on several forums. Not just this one. I frequent another forum, very much like this one. I have noticed a strong arrogance on the part of some of the members there as well. If you post, you had better have your resume ready. They will not take you seriously, or straight out attack you if you are not up to their standards.

I've been told by one person that of all the care sheets out there on monitors, if it is not the one he wrote in cooperation with a friend/breeder he knows, it is wrong. The same individual claims to personally know EVERY successful breeder of BT's in the US.

But hey. Maybe he does.

Hi,

Regarding knowing every single person who breeds V. albigularis - there are several people who regularly breed/keep Varanids and NEVER post on forums, 'lurkers' I think they are known as, who keep to themselves and not in the lime-light of Vara-World, and with all the crap going on, why bother! There are keepers out there who have tremendous Varanus collections, and few in anyone know of them...and so to claim they know every successful breeder of V. albigularis or whichever Varanus is just plain silly - it might be better for them to say, "They know several BT breeders, etc..."

I could claim I have ALL the writings of Varanus, but that is not true - I have perhaps 90%-95% of it, and most of it makes terrific reading, especially when I see something a varanid does and know 90-95% that is it has never been reported, hence it is 'new' to zoological aspects of these animals is really cool.
For instance, sibling Varanids NOT mating with their related conspecifics, but will obligingly with non-related animals - among mammals, this is commonly known, among certain reptiles, commonly known; among varanids = NOT commonly known and/or published... and working on that now....

cheers,
mbayless

Hey, I'm with you. I think it is rediculous to make such a bold claim. But it was made. And many others just as arrogant. But like I said, I can't exactly lay claim to what others "know." These are the things, and tactics, that really detract from the potential good these forums can provide. There was a very long, heated post about this very topic on the other site. The tone became very hostile and flaming. The entire thread totally deteriorated to arguments about those posting and who they were, and what they knew and not at all about the herps that started it all. The thread became so ugly, with so many involved, the admin totally removed the entire thing. I got sucked right in, too, I'm not proud to admit. What I can say I know is this person hates me. But I am one to challenge and question dubious information. How else can one ensure they are doing the right thing for their animals. But apparently questioning this person's exstensive knowledge is a sin on par with heresay.

BTW- this person has listed you as a source, Bayless. Apparently you are friends, or aquaintences, or whatever...

I'm new to this forum. I must say I was a little shocked, and very impressed to learn FR is Frank Retes. Wow. A celebrity! That's really cool! I am somewhat familiar with his work, but impressed with what I have seen and read.

I've read most of the posts posted within the last month. The credentials of those posting is very impressive. Its just hard to extract any information from the posts because of all the rhetoric. I love a debate! And I'm always up for a heated one. But I have trouble following what's being debated by the end of a thread. It does make for great reading. Especially when its slow at work.

First understand, any two other people carrying on a conversation, does not pertain to you or other lurkers, they are talking with present and past context of their own. Even dumb stuff, like Sam and I. If you are interested in the subject, then you should ask a direct strait forward question. If the question really does not fit directly in the thread, start another thread, then ask a direct question.

There are many difficult things about forums. My experience is that most are the same I often lurk at other forums and they are, more or less, like this one. People are consistant.

There are many problems when you have people with a wide range of experience levels. How does a person with lots of experience, converse with someone that has none? That is a very hard thing to do. It may sound simple, but it is not. It ends up like teaching(which is not my job or responsibility)(or any others job here) Then someone accuses the other of thinking there better then them. Hey who asked whom? See what I mean. Heck people ask me a direct question like how I did this or that, I give an honest answer, then they complain, I only tell them my way(frank sinatra)and not other peoples ways. Hmmmmmmm shoulda asked them, see what I mean.

Of course, there are people who are trained at that, but not most here or other forums, so you have normal everyday people from lots of backgrounds and experiences trying to talk about a common subject.

If you sit and wait for the forum to come to you, you have a long wait and no right, what so ever, to complain. The forum is what YOU make it. Thanks FR

Teaching and training are 50% of my job. Maybe that's what gets under my skin so much. And maybe I should not be so judgemental and expect certain things in public forums.

You are right. Teaching is an art. In my job, I have to teach technical knowledge to neophytes, who then have to impart this knowledge to customers in a selling environment. I fully understand how difficult it is to speak to someone who knows nothing about a topic that requires certain in depth explanation to understand.

All I can offer is this in the hopes that it helps. Knowing how to deliver knowledge is equally as important as the knowledge itself. But it is unfair to expect enthusiests to become teachers for the sake of hobbyists to further their practices. Frank, I hear you man. And more power to you for staying on and offering info for the rest of us. I know I can use it.

There is one HUGE difference to what I have read on this forum versus the thread mentioned on the other; there is valid information changing hands. The person in question is more about his status than the assistance of others; more about the attack of contrary information than the search for better knowledge, and posseses profound arrogance in the place of true wisdom. And that just pisses me off.

But as I said. Who am I to judge...

but you do eventually get so you can get a lot of usable content out of these posts. LOL When I first started reading posts here, I got more confused than I'd care to admit, but after awhile I got the hang of it. Think of it as research; not everything you read will be about what you are researching, but if you keep it in mind, it fits in later with something else you want to know. And Frank's posts have gotten easier to read (Hi, Frank!). You should try to make sense out of some of his earlier posts!

Leslie

Yes there is alot of good info if you look for it. There is great info if you check the archives.
As for the post by FR, once you get the hang of going "HUH?" and banging your head against the computer desk you can learn to make sense out of some of the things the old desert rat has to say. I think he spends too much time in the sun sometimes.
He's a crazy old coot, maybe that's why I like him.
Anyone older and nuttier than me has got to be OK.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

First let me say, I do spend tooo much time in the sun, and I only put claim to be a crazy olde coot(er) and desert rat is something I admire.

I would rather be funny then educational. At least here, remember, this is not college, or school, its only a bunch of monitors nuts talking. Yes, thats the reality of this place. The people who only come here to be educated, are in for a rough road. As you see, who do you believe???

Now the real responce, I believe its the difference in experience that causes the misunderstanding. These things I take for normal and have done a thousand times, you still wonder and question. As you can see from the pics. I already am secure in what temps, or bulbs, or substrates or humidities, or types of hiding or what materials to make them out of. Or how to socialize monitors, or how to sex the dang things. All these and more, are old stuff for an old coot. What allows me to fail or succeed, is the actual applying of what I already know.

Now sir, heres the very important part, You can know what to do, but not know when to apply it or not apply it. Which ends up the same as not knowing(the problem with the MS's). Not applying in a timely manner, is the same as ignorance. Not applying something you already know is worse, its stupidity. So, now and then, I go stupid, I am sure you will here me say that. Again, going stupid is not doing something I already understand.

Understand, we all make mistakes, but for me, its about going stupid and for beginers, its about ingorance. Between those two areas are a huge amount of confusion.

That is if we are being honest, Its my believe, that MS's is neither of these, I believe, they have other motives, like jealousy, etc. If it was really about monitors, they would not be playing their silly games. I hope I am being ignorant about that, but I wouldn't bet on it. Cheers FR

The thread in question was someone was claiming to have been breeding albigs for a couple of years. I was one of the ones asking for proof. I was not the one claiming knowledge of any other breeders, just had an understanding, (I could be wrong)
that not alot people have had success breeding albigs.
I did notice when proof was asked from the person making the claim, he came up with all kinds of excuses for not having any pics.
If I ever hatch anything, you can bet everyone willing to look will see the pics. Hell, I'll probally rent a billboard. HAHAHA

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

That's not entirely accurate. RepDr did say he maintained pics of the hatchlings as well as shells. He indicated he would, if asked, provide proof to anyone who wanted to BUY his animals, which was not an issue. Where I recall the thread going WAY out of control, much like this one threatens to do, is when a certain member basically kicked him straight in the junk and posted what I thought was a very hostile response stating he was lying. This, by the way, before anyone asked for proof, or allowed a response from Dr. In the end, Rdr managed to get booted because of his handling of the "other" topic, which I can't exactly disagree with. He really took that last post too far. But I think the point remains, people jumped the gun with the accusations before giving him a chance to respond.

I saved the thread to my computer.

Well, I asked for proof, but I asked nicely, atleast I think I did. I'm always nice, well..... not always. HAHAHA

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

yeah, you asked nice. I do not recall you going postal until we were all back in the school-yard squaring off.

Hi Scott,
Yes, I know what you mean, I have gobs of photographs, some 35mm slides, and a bunch of them in bottles of formaline/alcohol. Ive got eggs in alcohol too....and have been collecting breeding data on ALL African varanids for 15 years for a future paper, which I am beginning to put down on paper - I have compiled the information, and will know what it says to me when it is all written down in flow charts and all - Science works well that way, putting all your information together and letting 'it' tell you what is says instead of visa-versa (you telling what 'it' says) - Ive got info of breedings, successful, unsuccessful, disaster scenarios that happened to people (me included), and of down right fraudulant accounts published many years ago (i.e. a fellow who claimed to breed V. albigularis only to put these beautiful babies into chicken eggs and photograph them as such!)....
cheers,
mbayless