Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have an albino het male ball and I am getting my female het this year and in the next couple of years I plan on getting a number of other morphs or het (pastel, pieds, ghosts, axanthincs...you know how it goes) and I would like to successfully hatch all these rad snakes.

So anyway, last night my girlfriend and I are talking and she mentions how she thinks it is wrong to selectively breed any animal for certain traits. She feels like messing with nature is not right. I agree with her to a point. I don't think anyone should mess around with nature. But I don't feel like breeding for naturally occuring morphs is wrong. They are all ball pythons and it doesnt change anything in the snake besides its color. A ball python is a ball python regardless of morph right?

If it were changing the species I would understand. Has anyone ever had a similar disagreement with anyone and been able to come up with a good defense/explanation for this argument? I don't want to try and prove her wrong, I just want to be able to better explain my point of view at least to a point where she might be able to understand a little bit more than I can explain to her.

Thanks for your input!

LOL, sounds like you are trying to prove her wrong, moreover; reaching for a legitimate reason to justify your guilt of future breeding projects. Perhaps you should take time and reflect whether you feel it is right to breed these morphs. I would read what you can on genetics to aid in your decision. Just playing the devil's advocate so please do not interpret this as an attack. The thought has crossed my mind as well. I have yet to see a harzardous result of selective breeding from my observations, but it sounds to me your girlfriend's issue is morally related where the scientific proof which you seek may not hold ground. Take for instance the ensuing argument.

I disagree with the importation of wild caught animals to some extent. For instance, there are sooo many BP's in captivity with varying color and pattern morphs. Do we really need to continue taking them from the wild especially with many household breeders? How many morphs until the breeders and hobbyists are content? I battle with this thought, and came to the realization my question can not be answered unless I knew the impact this is having on natural populations. Something which must be researched from a non-biased party. For herpers, the advent of these morphs are ground-breaking. Let us face it - many people are profiting from these animals and many more hope to, myself included. It must be mentioned caring for these wonderous creatures has touched my soul even before the morph craze, and I am sure there are thousands of others who feel the same. In saying that I do not purchase WC specimens, but may change my mind if I knew the true impact on wild populations.

Lastly, you may take refuge from guilt by only breeding naturally occuring morphs, such as albinos. To my knowledge the creation of these morphs, as well as designer mutations, has not resulted in a catastrophic change or disturbance within the species other than pattern and color. This is how I justify the selective breeding of ball pythons. If the animals were all coming out deformed with ten eyes, or had some major behavioral change I may feel differently. Wants to run for office....

Anyways, I hope this helps sort things out in your mind. Good luck with your girlfriend. I will say it again, GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR GIRLFRIEND, HAHAHA!

Best Regards,
Todd G.

You said breed a morph that is naturally occuring....which morphs are not naturally occuring?.....and even if they've never been found in the wild...who is to say they aren't there or would/could breed to make these other morphs....
I don't know about you but I've never seen a morph just automatically come out without getting it from the wild or breeding to animals from a short lineage or right out of the wild.....
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

Luke,

I agree with you. I was in a rush while responding to the post, however, you raise a valid point. Even though I have yet to hear of a designer morph ( ex. Bumble bee ) in the wild there may certainly be one. One must also consider the fact that theses mutations exist for a reason. Thanks for the correction.

Luke,

BTW, are you still working at the pet store? I am the guy with long hair about 6 foot tall that comes in on occassion with my young daughter ( 4 yrs ). We usually come for rats. Anyways, I noticed your ad with the anacondas and said there is too much of a coincidence.

Take care,
Todd

P.S: Was that you who purchased the big female a few weeks back? The female at the pet store that came with the cage. If so, you beat me to it by a day, LOL! Congrats.

"I don't know about you but I've never seen a morph just automatically come out without getting it from the wild or breeding to animals from a short lineage or right out of the wild..."

Luke,

I discussed this with my wife and must retract my previous statement. While the possibilty of a bumble bee in the wild is theoretically possible humans "selectively " breed these animals for there specific traits. Therefore, I do not consider this "naturally occuring". An albino or axanthic, for instance, do pop up on occassion. This would be selective breeding to produce an already existing mutation and not creating phenotypes of multiple traits. Or possibly even a completely different trait as a result. Much like an albino human or someone with two different colored eyes. How about Down's syndrome? Now, you have seen all these traits on people in your lifetime, but when is the last time you have seen an albino human with down's syndrome that has two different colored eyes? Theoretically this may be possible, but I do not consider this "natural". Also, I can not recall the last time I heard of an albino spider ball from an importer. We purposely breed to replicate these particular traits in hopes of a completely different phenotype, and IMO this is not considered a natural occurance.

I also think one of the key statements you said was, "breeding from a short lineage". You comment, " coming right out of the wild", this is what I was referring too when I said breed the animals that are naturally occurring. My last few statements could have been written clearer, so this may have been the cause of some misinterpretation.

Todd

Yes but since these animals are different than their surroundings (ex. albino)....alot of times they don't have the chance to reproduce making these other types of morphs. And I'm sure there have been morphs that have come and gone without us knowing about them.....
IF it were possible that the snakes would have no natural predators....these morphs could actually be possible....and that is what we are doing....we are eliminating the predators to further the future in these animals when in the wild they would not last.....
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

Luke,

I can not say that I agree whole-heartedly with you. However, I could see this debate over a few cold ones - LOL!

Take care - you got mail,
Todd

Seriously, look at the dog. Does your GF disagree with dog breeds? Cat breeds? Horses? Cows? Chickens? The list goes on and on. Any concentrated breeding effort is nearly the same thing. Breeding two animals together, or more specifically, two appearances of the same species together for many many generations to arrive at a desired trait has nothing to do with the "wild." The animals produced will be so far removed from the "wild" it can not possibly have an impact on wild populations.

When you buy a CBB ball, you are not "messing with the wild" unless you plan on letting it escape back into the African jungle, or anywhere, for that matter. Most people breeding these guys have no intention of ever doing that, of course.

The problem I feel is more important to address is the widespread importation of baby ball pythons into the US and Europe every year. Choosing a captive born and bred ball python from CBB parents instead of "long-term captives," farm-hatched/CH or wild caught balls can be best for you if you have a problem with it. Personally, I really do not like the idea of owning a normal baby from Africa, captive hatched or not. But I also realize Africa remains a great resource for "new blood," when it comes to normals and "morphs," as well as fantastic morphs no one has ever yet seen.

Thats why I stick with a gamebred APBT (American Pitbull terrier), everything & then some in one little pakage. NO SHOW DOGS HERE!!!!
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Chad Bachman

Nature select breeds all the time. The only real difference is the hobbyist/breeder is looking for more aesthetic appearance than what nature normally does. Even then, it is often the most brilliant patterened, coloured, biggest rack, etc that gets the girl in the wild. Look at most species of birds, many spend alot of time and energy showing off their feathers to get their dull colored females to choose them as their mates.

Some of these brightly colored animals in the wild risk their own safely as they lack the camoflage of their females. I am sure a bright flashing panther chameleon stands out well against the greens and browns of the jungle for a natural predator to get him, while he is all dressed up for love. Many male animals go to great efforts to prove they are the biggest and the best to father offspring, even to the point of killing themselves and not necessarily due to competition with other males. I am sure many male birds and other animals get pegged by a predator while they are busy puffing, strutting, crooning and flaring bright colors to impress the females.

The only time the hobbyist/breeder risks the overall health of the animal is if he inbreeds too much to isolate desired recessive traits which result in an unhealthy animal due to harmful recessive traits. Most respectable breeders will out cross new animals to freshen the gene pool. Alot of the bright colored morphs of ball pythons wouldn't survive in the wild as they do rely on camoflage to stalk their prey but then again, I don't think any captive bred animal will survive in the wild, even if it looks identical to their wild brothers.

What I am more against is wild caught animals. There should be plenty of normal ball pythons hatched in captivity that could be sold instead of wild caught, at reasonable prices. I would rather spend 20-50% more on a guarenteed captured bred ball python that is eating well on frozen thawed mice/rats than a wild caught ball that may or may not eat frozen thawed or even live mice/rats and could have all kinds of mites, internal parasites, and other health issues.

After you produce some morph's, and sell them I bet you she will change her mind.
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True Image Reptiles

Haha, best answer yet!

Just tell her we are rescuing these snakes...because most (example albino) would be eatin or die very early in life if it were out in the wild....so we are just keeping the genes alive!
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

If people didn't mess around with nature, most of today's human population wouldn't exist.

Imagine this...no imported or improved crops or livestock. No mass cultivation, as it destroys the natural ecosystem.

No vaccinations or medications for the sick.

People would be confined to the regions of the earth temperate enough to live in without changing the environment (ie, ripping down forests or diverting water to arid regions, etc)

Natural resources would be sufficient to support a small fraction of today's population.

Like or not, we all exist because the human race is selfish. Our highly developed self-awareness has put us in a position where we value our own species above all else.

Sad to think of, but that is the state of things. Toss those apples at your girlfriend and see what she says.

best of luck

K. Royer

Morphs...huh. I think in general we are breeding for color and pattern and on occasion for size. Other than that we are not (intentionally) breeding for any other characteristic. Let's face it there isn't much else to breed for in snakes.

Dogs are a different issue I think because we have not only bred them for color and size; we've also identified specific behavioral traits to breed for. For example some are good for hunting, some for protection, others are simply good companions. At the end of the day we have done much more with the mammal species on this planet through selective breeding than we have with anything else (plants excluded).

Now, taking this into consideration (we are only breeding for primarily 3 traits: color, pattern and size), it could be said that people do the same thing every day with our own species (to an extent).

I'll use myself as an example; I like brunettes, with a medium to dark complexion, and a medium build. Naturally, my girlfriend has all of these attributes (and more she's incredibly intelligent and one of the kindest people I've ever met...but those traits are psychological and this discussion is based on physical traits). Someone else has a different idea of what they find physically attractive. When breeding snakes we are looking for traits that appeal to us and seeing if any of them can be isolated and passed on to future generations.

If I want to pass on traits I find appealing to my descendents I will have to find a mate that will make it possible. Same with snakes.

BTW, just so I don't get bombarded about this: I DO feel there is more to a relationship than the physical side of it. But, (I'll say it again) this is a discussion about physical traits not psychological ones (nature vs. nurture). I was just attempting to show this argument from another point of view.
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It's actually not that I love or even like snakes. I just hate rodents.