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Has anyone noticed how many different folks have CB Russians for sale on the Kingsnake classifieds? This is a good thing. I wonder how long it will be before this starts effecting the import Russian market?

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Has anyone noticed how many different folks have CB Russians for sale on the Kingsnake classifieds? This is a good thing. I wonder how long it will be before this starts effecting the import Russian market?

not soon enough!

i'm one of those breeders and i would dearly love to see the importation stop. one of the problems is the pricing. the way the big chain stores price them, they fall into the disposable or trial pet category. none of us want our offspring to go to that way.

once people start learning that the captive bred tortoises are actually cheaper in the long term (fewer vet bills), they may catch on. but it seems that long-term thinking is in short supply these days.

matt

...until then, all we can do is spread the cb bugs...

I don't have a problem with the disposable pet market. I've acquired some really nice animals because of it and those I weren't interested in have started some good herper/tortoise keepers career.

I really don't think you would be seeing the abundance of Russians that you are seeing unless you had the influx that you did.

I'll bet you are going to see the same thing with the Cherryheads and Golden Greeks.

Once you get over that initial period of keeping them alive it's just a matter of time. I'll bet the internet has a good deal of speeding up the process.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

"I don't have a problem with the disposable pet market. I've acquired some really nice animals because of it and those I weren't interested in have started some good herper/tortoise keepers career."

granted. but is that small number of tortoises that you and a couple hundred new keepers have picked up annually, really worth the demise of tens of thousands of tortoises each year?

when i say "disposable" i'm referring to the value that many, unfortunately, put onto merchandise that is "inexpensive." maybe i'm naive, but i think a more respectable price would garner more respect for the animal, and might possibly help to instill a little more effort into learning about tortoises and taking care of them properly.

just a point of view...

matt

That is one point of view.

I really don't think it is 'tens of thousands'. A few thousand might actually be be stretching it and as usual with those kind of numbers there will be a knee jerk reaction and it will be halted in a short time.

Get em while you can. We really need to do this for a good base captive population.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

A woman at work said her daughter wanted a tortoise so I recommended a Hermanns & sent her some links to people selling them on Kingsnake classifieds. She was shocked by the prices- I guess she thought she could get one for $10. The next day she asked about Russians because they were really cheap compared to Hermanns. I told her the cheap ones were full grown imports & were likely to be full of parasites & would need to go to the vet for a check-up.

"Take a tortoise to the vet? That's silly."

"Having it die in a few months & breaking your kid's heart is silly. Taking it to a vet is part of being a responsible pet owner."

A few days later she thanked me for my efforts & said a neighbor had given them a box turtle & that had satisfied the tortoise craving.

So be it.
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"Take a tortoise to the vet? That's silly."

thanks david. i believe your story has captured the point of the discussion.

it's amazing to me how many people consider the tortoise to be a low maintenance pet.

get'em breeding folks!

matt

And you just keyed onto the problem... There is in 'one' point to this discussion.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Not everyone is as passionate about these creatures as us (yes, i did say 'us') but it has to start somewhere. For some reason the phrase 'winning the battle but loosing the war' comes to mind.

The kid just might get 'into' the boxie and become yet another advocate.

Does that make sense?
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

"The kid just might get 'into' the boxie and become yet another advocate. Does that make sense?"

yes, i agree, ed. that makes perfect sense.

my point is that if we breed these creatures in captivity, i'd like to think we'll ease the pressure on the natural populations. there will still be box turtles and tortoises around, both in the pet store and in the wild. chelonians in the tank or chelonians in the steppe can both be inspiring.

i would like to believe that we can build advocacy and save wild populations at the same time.

something about cake and eating it too?

matt

I definately took this in the wrong direction.

You are saying exactly what I believe. (let me get this knot out of my panties)

The example that you originally posted is testement that captive breeding does take pressure off WC populations.

What we are also seeing is that more keepers who are not into it for the money are popping up.

I just noticed a breeder on the tortoise list selling his russians for $100 each and they are very well started. Some of you might recognise his name, if you check it out, as the guy who gave that fantastic discription of how he keeps his animals.

The point here is that we, again, need a good founding stock of WC animals.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>"What we are also seeing is that more keepers who are not into it for the money are popping up."

many of us who breed russians hang out on the russian site and openly share our experiences that have allowed us to stumble upon successful breeding.

it's very hard (i would even say impossible) to breed for the money. to make a profit and care for them properly, keep good records, etc. would mean that each tortoise would have to cost a couple thousand dollars. all you can hope to do is regain some of your costs.

i for one, set my prices so that they are not tempting to resellers. i like to know who is getting the tortoise. to make sure they provide a good home, i'm always available for questions. the buyer also gets a full report of all the tortoises "personal" data.

i'm hoping all of this promotes a healthy community.

matt

Have you ever refused to sell one of your animals because of a bad feeling from the recipient.

Ironically I'm having the same discussion off list with another tortoise breeder.

There is no way you can select who gets your animals.

Why breed them?
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>"Have you ever refused to sell one of your animals because of a bad feeling from the recipient."

no, anytime i've had a bad feeling, they have dropped out of the discussion on their own. as one breeder said, "lots of tire kickers out there."

but what i do think is helpful, and similar to what david c was talking about, is to let a potential buyer know exactly how i have my tortoises set-up, what i feed them, what supplements i use, etc. this almost always gives the causual buyer second thought about the matter. those that say, "i'm looking for an easy pet to put in my empty 20 gallon tank," usually get the picture that a tort might actually take some effort.

i have talked friends out of them, however. when they say, "that would be different, could we have one?" i go into overdrive to convince them that a tortoise is not right for them. in one case i knew them well enough to see the writing on the wall. they would get bored and want me to take it back after a year of neglect. i often suggest that they start with a plant.

matt

Come to think of it, I once talked a kid out of an Aldabra... that was big bucks. I knew that deal was heading south.

Then there was Harry the Redfoot. I made the guy send him back to me. Harry now resides in Hawaii.

I guess I've done it a few times but as with anything it depends. I'll never go so far as to say 'you're not fit to be a tortoise keeper' as some folks would.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

"I really don't think it is 'tens of thousands'. A few thousand might actually be be stretching it and as usual with those kind of numbers there will be a knee jerk reaction and it will be halted in a short time."

there were 92,548 globally exported russian tortoises between the years of 1992 & 1996. that's a yearly rate of 18K and change. i shudder to think of what the numbers look like now!

for the gory details, please take a look at:

www.tortoisereserve.org/Research/Bred_Torts_Body2.html

let's get everyone educated and successfully breeding tortoises so that there are some natural populations reasonably intact. it would be nice if a few species remained in the wild for our grandkids to enjoy.

i took the liberty to borrow this from "old herper"

"We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children." Ralph Waldo Emerson

still just one concerned point of view.

matt

That reference just may be taken out of context.

I don't have a problem with conservation but I do have a problem with radical conservation without addressing the 'big picture'. (but then I've already been told that's nonsense)

I have an even greater problem with hypocracy. (I'll address that one privately if you'd like)
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

hi Ed,

i sense that the tone of this discussion has shifted a bit. i'm not sure when or why, but i'd like to attempt to reset the tone with an apology to you and other readers who may have stumbled into what i still believe to be an interesting discussion.

let us please continue. others may want to chime in.

i guess i don't believe that advocating captive breeding programs in an attempt to reduce the exploitation of wild populations is a radical notion. further, i don't believe that a reduction in importation of tortoises is a form of radical conservation. it seems more like responsible stewardship to me.

>>"I have an even greater problem with hypocracy. (I'll address that one privately if you'd like)"

if you feel that i'm being a hypocrite, then i'm sorry, but i don't understand. i can see how you might sense a conflict of interest, but "hypocrisy" seems a bit strong. feel free to explain publically, or privately if you wish.

thanks,

matt

What I would call radical conservation is totally banning the importation of WC animals. Basically, anytime I see the word 'banning' I would call that radical.

I'm not sure if you used it or not but that was the impression I got.

I don't have a problem with controlling the importation of WC animals with quotas and regulations for distribution. I think that would be fair.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Matt,

I'm sorry if you saw my comment as calling you a hypocrite. That was not my intent.

It also shouldn't have been said on the forum. You're right in that it would probably take a good discussion in a bad direction.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care