Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I happened across this site, while conducting a search, and thought it contained some interesting information.
It seems anytime a petition or amendment is presented, regarding an endangered species, they post such on here.
I have copied one such proposal, regarding Drymarchon couperi and Aphelocoma coerulescens.
The petitions are open to public comment, so it may be a worthwhile cause to follow the site on a regular basis, and voice your opinions whenever petitions arise, which could adversely affect wild populations of D. couperi.

Jeff

FOR ALL THINGS WILD, JULY 20, 2004

Date: 20 Jul 04
From: esc@stopextinction.org

For All Things Wild, July 20, 2004
The Endangered Species Coalition Comments and Deadlines Report
Federal Register June 9 to 20, 2004
(c)Endangered Species Coalition 2004

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Endangered Species Coalition report tracks Federal Register and other
opportunities for activists to comment on Endangered Species Act
implementation and selected endangered species habitat related issues
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reopenings, Extensions & Corrections:

FL SCRUB JAY & EASTERN INDIGO SNAKE "LOW EFFECT" HCP/ITP:
Michael Hoffman (Applicant), seeks an incidental take permit (ITP) from
the Fish and Wildlife Service (Service), pursuant to section 10(a)(1)(B)
of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (Act), as amended. The ITP would
authorize incidental take of the Florida scrub-jay (Aphelocoma
coerulescens) and the eastern indigo snake (Drymarchon corais couperi), on
a single family lot for a period of twenty (20) years. The proposed taking
is incidental to land clearing and other activities associated with the
construction of a single family home on a 1.21-acre lot in Brevard County,
Florida (Project). The Applicant's Habitat Conservation Plan (HCP)
describes the mitigation and minimization measures proposed to address the
effects of the Project to the Florida scrub-jay.

http://www.gsenet.org/newsstnd/ftw.htm

Does this mean that someone who buys property in that area could obtain a permit to "take" an eastern indigo from it's natural habitat by the owner of that property? Sorry,... I'm not a Phliladephia Lawyer. Lol, But seriously,... what does this mean? And is this something that is actualy being proposed? And if so,...by whom? Thanks,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

An incidental take permit will allow a contractor to develop an area of habitat, known to harbor an endangered or threatened species.
While some specimens may be injured or killed in the process, the legislation indicates a developer must abide by the following protocol:

1. An eastern indigo snake protection/education plan shall be developed by the applicant or requestor for all construction personnel to follow. The plan shall be provided to the Service for review and approval at least 30 days prior to any clearing activities. The educational materials for the plan may consist of a combination of posters, videos, pamphlets, and lectures (e.g., an observer trained to identify eastern indigo snakes could use the protection/education plan to instruct construction personnel before any clearing activities occur). Informational signs should be posted throughout the construction site and contain the following information:
description of the eastern indigo snake, its habits, and protection under Federal Law;
instructions not to injure, harm, harass or kill this species;
directions to cease clearing activities and allow the eastern indigo snake sufficient time to move away from the site on its own before resuming clearing; and
telephone numbers of pertinent agencies to be contacted if a dead eastern indigo snake is encountered. The dead specimen should be thoroughly soaked in water, then frozen.
2. Only an individual who has been either authorized by a section 10(a)(1)(A) permit issued by the Service, or designated as an agent of the State of Florida by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission for such activities, is permitted to come in contact with or relocate an eastern indigo snake.

3. If necessary, eastern indigo snakes shall be held in captivity only long enough to transport them to a release site; at no time shall two snakes be kept in the same container during transportation.

4. An eastern indigo snake monitoring report must be submitted to the appropriate Florida Field Office within 60 days of the conclusion of clearing phases. The report should be submitted whether or not eastern indigo snakes are observed. The report should contain the following information:

any sightings of eastern indigo snakes;
summaries of any relocated snakes if relocation was approved for the project (e.g.,
locations of where and when they were found and relocated); and
other obligations required by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, as stipulated in the permit.

They have incidental take laws about gopher tortoises too.

From my understanding, if you want to build and your property has these animals on it, you pay a fee and they can be "relocated" so that you can develop the land.

So...you are taking ideal habitat with resident populations of tortoises and indigos and CATCHING them, and MOVING them to areas where they may not survive, or worse, may put strain on the exisiting population.

It doesn't take much thinking to see where this leads long term...less and less available habitat and animals being pushed all over to the places that are "currently" not needed.

It's not really fair to draw a comparsion between humans and animals but...doesn't it remind you a bit of what happened to the Native Americans?

Absolutely, Drini, I'm with you! How do we put a stop to it?
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

I'm not sure that there's much that can be done about this. The ESA was written with these provisions built in. The idea was to prevent protection of the animals from halting development and commerce. It's not practical to try to protect the animals at the expense of the "good of the people". The premise of the law is that the landowner has rights to his property and that includes the right to develop it and build on it. There is an awful lot of privately owned land that is inhabited by Eastern Indigos and Gopher Tortoises. If they prohibited development of any land that these animals live on, that would effectively halt any construction or development on a large part of the state of Florida. Developers and builders have a lot of money and a lot of political clout. What would end up happening is that they would lobby until they got the ESA repealed, then there would be no Federal protection. State laws are subject to the same problems. So, they try to strike a balance. They built in provisions for landowners to get variances and permits to relocate animals from land that is to be developed. I think a part of the intent was for the government to provide suitable protected habitat for these animals to be relocated to. The problem with all of that is, as we know, relocation and repatriation doesn't work very well. It's a problem with no easy answers.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Does this law allow the property owner to take an animal, and transfer it's possesion to a private collector? Like one of us? That would at least ensure the survival of the animal, and allow new blood into the captive gene pool. I don't realy like this option as much as the option of stopping development, but sometimes if ya can't beatem,...Well.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

I believe "take" is a euphemism for accidentally kill.

>>Does this law allow the property owner to take an animal, and transfer it's possesion to a private collector? Like one of us? That would at least ensure the survival of the animal, and allow new blood into the captive gene pool. I don't realy like this option as much as the option of stopping development, but sometimes if ya can't beatem,...Well.
>>T.
>>-----
>>"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Nope. They have to be collected by someone who holds a collection/possession permit (read: FWS employee) and relocated to an approved area. We all know that once that happens the chance of survival are next to nil. Sometimes the laws look good when they draft them up, but just don't make sense in practice. It would make much more sense to use those animals in captive propagation projects whether private or institutional.

If you think about it, stopping all development doesn't make sense either. I know it appeals to us as Indigo lovers to preserve all habitat that is left, but we all know that no matter how idealistically appealing it is, it will never happen realistically. What we have to deal with is the reality, not the ideal. That's why projects such as Natalie's project in Georgia are so important. It may be that when all is said and done we can find that there really is something we can do. One alternative is for the Government to buy up large parcels of this now privately held habitat and set it aside, even if there are presently no Indigos inhabiting it. We may figure out how to repatriate them at some point. With the rate the human population is growing and eating up that habitat, it needs to be done soon. It's all about money and it always will be.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

O.k. then, so how do we convince the govrnment to let us take these displaced animals into captivity? For the purpose of perpetuating the life of the individual animal, and to work toward the goal of perpetuating the species. And how do we get the government to buy the land, or how do we get the money to buy it?
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

I agree.

Realisticly it would be very hard to convince said government to not develope the land (all things really come down to money). But, if you give them that, would it really be that difficult to get a small concession of allowing those snakes into captive gene pools? I don't know...I'm just asking.
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One female Eastern Indigo. That's right, just one snake. But she's my dream-snake, so back off man.

Actually, D. couperi specimens which are confiscated from poachers, often times end up in captivity, as it is common practice for the USF&W to release such to zoological and educational entities. This is how the Little Rock Zoological Gardens obtained a pair of their specimens.
Unfortunately, I doubt the USF&W will be releasing any confiscated specimens to private individuals anytime soon, but keep in mind, zoological institutions often make excess genetic stock available to the public, typically in the form of a trade, as they often cannot sell specimens to the public, especially zoological institutions operated by government.

Jeff

Actually, incidental take regulations are not limited to any particular genus. Every species which has incurred ESA listing can be amended to an incidental take permit.
Unfortunately, very few people are aware that such permits are public information and individuals may e-mail, write and call in regards to their concerns over the issuance of such permits. Another unfortunate fact is the loud minority is heard well above the silent majority.
Perhaps it’s time to start making some noise.

Jeff

If Iv'e said it once, Iv'e said it a thousand times,...NATIONAL HERP SOCIETY> And I will continue to say it. We could get organized and do some good. I have tried, by sending e-mails to every Herp Society, in the country. Only one ever wrote back. They said that they would discuss it among the membership, but I never heard any more. I did talk to a lot of people at the F.I.R.E. show in Orlando, and they were all very much for the idea, but to try to get anyone to actualy do anything, or open there pocket book, well,...that's another story.

There are a ton of private organizations out there, raising money for conservation. Why can't we have one that raises money specificaly for the conservation of the Indigo? There is already a working group, geared towards conservation efforts. Perhaps this could be the foundation upon which to build something like a rehab center for injured indigos, and a research center to try and answere all the questions about repatriation, and wild release. I know it's all about money, and I for one do not have much. But I am willing to give what I can to the right people for the right purpose. Are there any like minded people out there? Has anyone formaly sat down to create a plan for such a facility? Labor could be mostly volunteer. I'm sure there are many people who would jump at the chance to work at a place like that. I would! If not, then perhaps it's time to get started in that direction. First we would need to know what we are looking at in terms of dollars, and then we could all set out to pester anyone we can think of for the money to make it happen. I'm willing to bet that all of us know someone who could give something for a goal like this.

Drini,... you know the right people to get an idea of what we need, and I'll bet you could be instrumental in making it happen.

Well, that's what I think. I know I sound like a broken record, but I just can't stand the way things are, and this is something that I just can't let go of.
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

An efficient, cost effective path already lies before us. Donate your dollars and time to the Nature Conservancy, maybe focusing on chapters in Florida and Georgia. They purchase critical habitat to protect it from development or other degredation and then sell it inexpensively to government agencies for permanent protection. Proceeds from sales can be used towards future purchases. I know of at least one area in Georgia where indigos have been incidentally protected because of their efforts. Perhaps breeders could donate a portion of each sale to the Nature Conservancy?