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DAILY OAKLAND PRESS (Pontiac, Michigan) 22 September 04 Detroit Zoo plays role in saving man bitten by deadly snake (Bob Gross)
The Detroit Zoo provided anti-venom for a man who was bitten by a bushmaster, a large venomous snake native to Central and South America.
Andy Snyder, curator of reptiles at the zoo, said he was awakened at 1:30 a.m. Sunday by a call for help.
"Actually the first call was from the Miami-Dade (County) fire rescue in Florida," said Snyder. "They maintain an anti-venom bank down there and apparently someone had called them regarding anti-venom.
"They called me at home asking where the closest anti-venom for bushmasters was."
Snyder referred the caller to the Toledo Zoo - the Detroit Zoo has anti-venom, but not specific to bushmasters.
Members of the pit viper family that includes rattlesnakes, bushmasters can grow up to 10 feet long and are the largest venomous snake in the New World.
Snyder received another call at 9:30 a.m. asking him to bring what the Detroit Zoo had to Huron Valley-Sinai Hospital in Commerce Township to serve as backup.
Hospital officials would not confirm that a man had been treated there for a snakebite.
Snyder said the accident illustrates the dangers of keeping exotic animals as pets.
"Certainly venomous snakes, it's the zoo's policy that there is no reason why anyone should keep venomous snakes in their home," he said.
"The vast majority of people who do keep them do not have the anti-venom stocks they would need to treat themselves in the event of an accident."
Such accidents also put zoo personnel at risk by depleting the zoo's own stocks of anti-venom, he said.
The zoo has been a resource for treating snakebites before, he said.
"This is the third time that I can remember over the past two or three years where we have supplied anti-venom for local hospitals when they have called with various bites," Snyder said.
"Even when we don't have to supply anti-venom, the zoo is a resource for information regarding venomous snake bites."
Detroit Zoo plays role in saving man bitten by deadly snake

what is that, two serious envenomations making the headlines in as many weeks? First an Urutu, now a bushmaster? Things aren't looking good...

Yea and I think there was another one but it was in the UK or somewhere overseas. *SIGH* I wish people would just learn that venomous snakes require experience. I don't even handle mine. I put food in and change water but when its cage cleaning time a friend of mine who keeps hots and has ten times my experience is right there to move them and then put them back. Well anyway good luck everyone.
Sera
S and M Reptiles and Exotics

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3.6 ball pythons
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.2 striped albino applegate gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.1 american alligator
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus

When the time comes, and it is coming, for hots to be outlawed, what if it was met with a proposal that to keep hots where it is currently legal that private keepers ABSOLUTLEY MUST have antivenom for the species they keep. Bound by law to have antivenom on hand. If not the fines could cover the expense of the northeast antivenom bank. I realize it's a huge financial burden to many keepers but it keeps the hot keepers right to own a venomous snake intact. It would also be a massive responsibility or anyone involved in this proposed AV bank. It's just an idea. Honestly, I don't think the hot or herp community could get enough people together to battle back against congress or organize an endevor such as a northeast antivenom bank. I'm in Jersey where hota are illegal, but i'd still volunteer to do my part. I plan on moving to PA soon and I'd like to get involved in hots but I'd really like it to be an option if i so chose. And for the record, my stupidest questions have never been met with any harsh responces from the veterans. The guys that get the harsh responces are the guys that should know better. Like getting a king cobra before they even ask how big they get.

That would be fine if getting AV was not 10 times harder to get than the bite you need it for.

Thats an interesting comment, because when I am out of school, I plan on starting another anti-venom bank and envenomation specialization unit somewhere else in the US. That won't be for awhile, got a bunch more years of phD and MD degrees to get first. Glad to see I have someone behind me. One problem, dont know where I'm gonna start it. Does anyone know where the highest average snake bite rate for a region is. I think #1 is florida, cuz of all the miami importing and venomous breeders, but does anyone know where there is a list or anything like that? It would help me out a lot. thanks.

Kevin Neal

Is it that hard for people to tell the hospital that if the bite incident makes the news that they will sue and basically own the hospital. It's common sense people.

Joe

"Hospital officials would not confirm that a man had been treated there for a snakebite." Kind of kills that idea. The zoo can tell anybody they want. And if the police happen to get involved it becomes a matter of public record. The common sence is take better precautions. "Just don't get bitten" is kind of a bold and impossible/unpredictable statemant to make so we won't go there. "Be prepared if you do get bitten" should be tattooed on every hot keeper though.

This is why I have fits when I see individuals "free handling" or asking basic questions about a species that they should have done their homework on before they aquired the herp.

Everyone needs to be vigilent regarding safe practices with their animals; that is handling and caging. Safe professional grade caging that minimizes the chance of escape. I(we) except the risk of working venomous animals, not the neighbors. Nothing gives us a bigger "blackeye" than an escaped venomous snake.

I have seen some dealers put Dollars before common sense and sell (something HOT) to someone who is not qualified to handle a Dekays Snake. On another forum, somebody obtained a Red Headed Krait (B. flavaceps) that he clearly regretted getting. Why, get a snake that's sole purpose in life it to get out and kill you? He did not even know what its prefered food was nor the correct climatic conditions required for the species.

Unless we work from within this community to "clean it up" The lawmakers will do it for us.

Best,

Al

To start off with, I was made aware of this bite late Monday night. I know the person who was bitten via telephone and email, as those who keep bushmasters is a small group.

After reading this news article four or five times, I had an hour long drive to ALbany to stew over this thing. I hope the keeper makes it, but the last I heard(from what little info that was available) things were not good.

NOW, we had a discussion down below, about starting an A/V Bank here in the Northeast. After thinking about it long and hard THIS IS A NECESSITY! And I hope we get it going.

WHY am I irritated? I was in Buffalo Saturday night and Sunday giving a talk to the Western NY Herp Society at their expo. In giving this talk, I had an 8' Lachesis melanocephala hybrid there for demonstration.

More importantly, HAD ANY ONE IN THE ZOO COMMUNITY HAD ACCESS TO INFORMATION AS TOO WHICH PRIVATE KEEPERS HAVE ANTIVENOM, THEY"D HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CONTACT ME! I HAD 15 VIALS OF COSTA RICAN ANTIVENOM WITH ME AND COULD HAVE DRIVEN IT TO DETROIT WITHIN 3 HOURS!!!!!!!

TELL ME, HOW STUPID IS THIS TO NOT HAVE COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ZOOS AND PRIVATE KEEPERS???? I am sick and tired of zoos giving this POLITICALLY CORRECT BS because the AZA wants the world to believe that private individiuals are unqualified. SEVERAL INSTITUTIONS INVOLVED IN THIS INCIDENT, HAVE ALREADY PURCHASED SNAKES FROM ME!!!!!!!! That's not important. What is important is this stupid double standard being portrayed and it completely infuriates me! It's ASSININE! THis WHOLIER THAN THOU Attitude is BS!!!

Why do people keep them in their homes? FOR THE same reason zookeepers work with them!! BECAUSE WE've HAD A PASSION FOR THESE ANIMALS SINCE CHILDHOOD! SOme of us, have just chosen a professional Career THAT PAYS MORE THAN $7 or $8 an hour! I don't mean to denigrate keepers for choosing their careers, but just because they are in a professional institution, DOESN"T mean they're more qualified to handle this or that snake. It just means you've read a book and complete more classroom hours to get your degree. I did the same, it just happened to in the engineering field so I could afford to do this privately and NOT HAVE TO DEAL with the public. As far as handling skills....we've ALL learned that in the woods behind the house over the past 20 years.

I don't believe there's a zookeeper here that's as qualified as Dean Ripa or Randal Berry at keeping bushmasters(with the exception of Don Boyer) AND THEY HAVE PRIVATE COLLECTIONS!!! They've forgotten More than I know about these animals, but this HOLIER THAN THOU attitude has got to stop! PEOPLE HAVE GOT TO START GETTING THEIR OWN A/V and if states revoke permits for not having antivenom, than TOUGH DARTS, you don't deserve to keep hots snakes, plain and simple. IF YOU"RE TOO STUPID OR LAZY to do it,...then let this be a wake up call.

Let's hope the Keeper pulls through!

Ive got to say though,when a newbie asks a question,alot of big timers out there jump on him like white on rice,sometimes the way we answer a question,can scare away other questions that bear answering.we as a comunity need to help rather than hurt.
Uve said it before,if the lawmakers divide us they will defeat us.PERIOD.we have got to stop tearing apart our own,no we are not all big time, big money keepers,but even the guy with a home caught copperhead deserves a respectable answer to his question.
and if he screws up,it will look just like a big name did, in the eyes of the media,and the eyes of lawmakers.
NOT to mention the fact that a human belonging to our,YES OUR,community lies possibly dying !

Everyone gets started somewhere. I just started on hots recently. I'm learning from TWO local dealers who have more experience with hots than alot of 'professionals' I've met. Now I'm not saying that hots are for inexperienced or brand new keepers but there are hots that don't require species specific AV and won't kill you. I have three dusky pygmy rattles and my boyfriend has a pair of copperheads. Both of these collections are housed in locking cages that are designed to hold them without risk of escape. I also keep a printout of care in case I am bitten by the door so its easily accessible on the way to the hospital. Basically all I would need is some cro-fab and depending on the amount of envenomation I'd be at a very low risk of any complications. I'm not planning on getting bit, but then no one does, so lets not be pissed at new keepers. I say encourage them to start with hots that aren't as likely to have serious complications. Also answer those beginner questions because if you scare them away we'll just see more headlines in another couple weeks. Lawmakers aren't out to get "us" (the educated keepers) and they aren't out to stop people from learning. Its all about education before buying so lets stop worrying about whether someone knew enough before they got bit and start EDUCATING BEFORE THEY BUY!!!! Thanks,
Sera
S and M Reptiles and Exotics

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3.6 ball pythons
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.2 striped albino applegate gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.1 american alligator
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus

Sera:

Why are you upset at my comments? They were just based on observations I've made and are not blown out of proportion. They are facts that can be seen on this forum and a testament of the state of our hobby. Email me directly and I'll site the threads that I'm referencing and you can read for yourself. I could have mentioned the threads but I was not trying to "fan and flames" ,it was ment to be constructive introspection.

I also took a moment to view your website and you are absolutely a professional in all respects, the kind that Matt refered to in his reply. Unfortunately, not everyone puts the same amount of effort into their care facilities and safety.

Like Matt; I too chose a profession that I could make a good living doing and at the same time afford to keep a serious collection and facility. I looked at becoming a professional keeper when I was in High School and interned at several Zoo's. After thirty years(this year of keeping a HOT collection; I'm glad I chose to be a professional outside of the Zoo.

Matt and I are working behind the scenes to start a North Eastern AV bank. I will have a questioneer available at the Hamburg show in October for all that are interested and by email for those who will not attend. It's very sad that the resources Matt has were not put into play to help Bob in a timely manner. I too hope he pulls through.

Al

No I am not replying to you in any way. It was just yours was the last post. I completely agree with most of what you said. I just had to vent because as a private keeper I get lots of flack about having hots. I'm not attacking anyone on this forum as I believe anyone here is at the very least trying to be a good keeper. I'm sorry if I offended you. I just want everyone to remember we all were beginners once and I think we should help people realize the advantages and disadvantages of keeping hots. A lot of beginners come here because they already bought a snake which is sad but if we help them instead of condemn them for not asking the right questions before buying, then maybe we can prevent a stupid mistake. I was also condemning the people at herp shows that sell to these inexperienced people knowing that they will either harm the snake or themselves. I know the man who sold the firefighter in Ohio the snake that killed him and it irks me to no end that he sold him that snake without ever meeting him in person. Again I'm sorry to offend anyone. Thanks
Sera
S and M Reptiles and Exotics

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3.6 ball pythons
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.2 striped albino applegate gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.1 american alligator
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus

the majority of incidents we're referring to are the exotic bites.

The majority of exotic antivenoms (with the exception of those from Australia) are quite a bit cheaper and affordable to obtain. This is more the case, when you see most keepers having $3000 worth of cobras, but no A/V.

My post was not intended to indicate that novice keepers working with copperheads or pygmies are at risk here, but eventually when you look to expand the collection, A/V should be the number one priority. When I started keeping bushmasters, it took 2 or 3 conversations with Dean RIpa about his bite experiences to convince me that these snakes CAN kill, and Costa RIcan antivenom is THEE most effective antivenom at counteracting the bite.

MH
Matabuey wesbite

A few thoughts:
First, Matt you are absolutely right that private keepers should be responsible for their own a/v. You are a good example of a responsible keeper. However, it's not the zoo's fault that you weren't called. From what I understand, someone in the family called Venom One, who called us. We suggested looking to a closer zoo (ie Toledo) that was closer to the bite and that we knew had Costa Rican. Toledo then was able to respond with 30 vials of antivenom. They did not deny or delay giving this to the victim.
Matt, I understand that you feel you were close by, but if you knew this guy why didn't HE have your contact info on his protocol? Or did he even have one?
From Jim's observations of Lachesis bites in Brazil, a delay of even an hour before a/v can lead to permanent organ damage. The only way to be that prompt is to do what Matt does, and what every zoo does, and HAVE YOUR OWN A/V!!!!! Why is this so hard for everyone to realize?
Zoo personnel are not all idiots. They too made a choice: that money is not important. They are willing to work for peanuts to do something they love and believe in. Of course they don't want to risk their lives for someone keeping a pet snake. However, most of them would defend your ability to keep snakes if it is done responsibly.
One last thing:We were told it was illegal for this gentleman to have the snake where he did. The recent urutu bite in Cincinnati also involved a woman keeping the snakes illegally. If the community wants to come across as being responsible, we can't defend people who break the law, no matter what our opinion is of the person or the particular law involved. Work to change the law, but don't break it.
We have bought animals from Matt and have told other zoos that his animals were in great condition. But I think that emotions are coming into play. The person responsible the bite is the keeper and that keeper is also responsible for his or her AV not the zoo or the hospital. Your friend is lucky that he had a good doctor. Toledo is now with out 30 vials CR antisera ,is this fair to their keepers?

Kristen Wiley

Simply acknowledging that there should be BETTER COMMUNICATION and networking between private keepers(more exactly holders of A/V) and zoos/Venom 1. BUT Zoos coming across in newsarticles giving the impression, that most private keepers are complete "yocals" is not called for. I thought the Cincy Zoo was very tactful in their handling of the situation(regardless of whether the person had them legally is another issue).

I agree with you for the most part. While I know who the person is, I wouldn't say I am a close friend, we've merely spoken on the phone once and maybe sent a couple of emails. Again, they never once approached me (NOR HAVE ANY OTHER bushmaster keepers, with the exception of Ripa) about having access to my A/V. No doubt they should've had their own.

Yeah, you're also very correct about the hour or so time frame for administering it as well. I am sure, had I been able to be contacted, I could've summoned someone at the Buffalo Zoo to arrange an air courier to Detroit.

Would it have helped? Maybe, maybe not...but we'll never know, but it could've made a difference.......

MH.

When a Zoo curator makes a remark like Snyder did, that is an attack on all of us who responsibly keep.

I do not keep AV, but I also NEVER get in striking range of any hot( other than mild rearfangs which I am resistant to naturally).

When I made the decision to keep hots at home, I made my choice not to have any large viper, or large (or fast moving)elapid that I could not move easily with a hook that left me out of strike range. I do not break this rule.

The closest I ever came to being envenomated by a Seriously Hot snake was when I was working for a Zoo as their curator. I got scratched (not bitten) by a strike from a six foot Moccasin. It left me a small scar to remind me to keep sane about this interest.

As to education...I do not have a degree in Herpetology, but the guy I replaced had a Masters and was fired, because he knew the science, but not the first thing about husbantry.

By all means we need to be responsible, but a blanket statement like "there's no reason why anyone shoud keep venomous snakes at home" is just plain irresponsible and yes...elitest.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I agree with what you say but how can you be sure you will NEVER be in striking range. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here but even the most experienced keepers get bitten. Its a matter of bad timing or something else, maybe luck. My boyfriend got bitten for the first time (non-venomous) because our kitten distracted him and he was trying to keep the kitten from being bitten. Its stupid things that make for accidents so please never say never. Comments like that worry me. Also please everyone be smart and put a folder containing basic care for envenomation of every hot you own by your front door. Keep a few safety pins there as well. This way on the way to the hospital you only need to grab the proper care sheet and pin it to your clothes in case you lose consciousness. If you are willing to spend huge amounts of money on a single beautiful but deadly snake then spend the time and money to have some AV or at the very least know the closest place that has it. Thanks,
Sera
Link

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3.6 ball pythons
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.2 striped albino applegate gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.1 american alligator
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus

Sera:

No question, there is always a chance something will happen and a keeper will get bit. Distractions & being careless will do it everytime and sometimes just bad luck. However, there are actions to be taken to minimize the chance and also to not cause a public relations nightmare.

Said previously in this forum or elsewhere:

Don't keep them illegally.
Keep your own A/V supply.
Use professional grade cages with locks with all hots.
Use barriers/dividers when working on a cage that is occupied. Sometimes safer than removing some Elapids to a holding cage.
Lastly,use common sense.

Have a good weekend,

Al

Those are some great tips and I currently follow all of them except I don't carry AV as my hots do not require any more than cro-fab which is readily available in PA because we do have some venomous in our woods. All I wanted to say was to follow precautions but also be ready to handle being bitten responsibly so that we as a community do not end up looking like uneducated fools. Please do not be offended, I mean no harm but I just can't stand when all people talk about is precaution and prevention and not being prepared for treatment. Thanks,
Sera
S and M Reptiles and Exotics

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3.6 ball pythons
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.2 striped albino applegate gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.1 american alligator
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus

Sera:

No offence taken I know all about the treatment part since I was chomped by a Horridus back in 1974. This is why you have good emergency protocols with local & national contacts because 99.9% of the doctors have no clue how to correctly treat a domestic bite no less an exotic snake bite. Qualified paramedics that also keep hots are a excellent for this duty. They are respected by both the medical and herping communities. Al Cruz and his team are good examples of this.

By the way, don't count on the local availability of CroFab. Hospitals in the North East where "Natural" snakebites don't happen often may have plenty of Wyeth Crotalid on hand to use first. Both are/were expensive and no hospital will throw the Wyeth out before it expires. Beside I read that CroFab is not that effective on a few species of NA Croatalid, C.h.horridus for one.

Happy Weekend!

Al

It's very simple not to get bit at home, if you remember the cardinal rule: A snake can only bite you if you allow it in striking range.

I have worked with venomous for over thirty years. I don't get bit because:

1) I make sure I ALLWAYS have a hook that is longer than the species I work with's strike range.

2) I allways make sure there is plenty of room in my work area to back up if it gets loose.

3) I do not allow fast moving species like Cobras, Mambas, etc in my home.

4) I limit the size of possibly lethal species in my home to those that only reach less than four feet.

5) Only trained people are around when I open a cage.

6) My work area is clear of floor clutter so if one does get loose (and the room it's self is escape proof)it can be easily and safely located and returned to it's cage. I have a rather persistent Rat Snake that helped me test my room.

7) Most important! I never allow a body part in strike range.

Now the only exceptions to those rules have been when I have done snake rescue in the wild, where you can't control all circumstances. I have been in far more danger of being bitten working for a Zoo than ever at home.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Oh.... more:

I never open a cage when I am home alone.

I have three cats. NEVER have cats and snakes in the same room. That goes for small children as well.

My wife knows (and she is licensed too) that when I work with these animals Nothing is allowed that will distract...PERIOD!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I'm not good with the scientific names of reptiles yet. What were you bitten by in regular old english terms? And is Wyeth more likely to help with my pygmys if I get bitten? Thanks for the clarification.
Sera
S and M Reptiles and Exotics

-----
3.6 ball pythons
1.2 king snakes (1 chocolate, 2 albino)
1.1 columbian red tail boas
1.1 pueblan milksnakes
2.2 african house snakes
2.2 striped albino applegate gophers
1.0 watersnake
1.2 burmese pythons (1 albino, 2 hets)
2.1 pygmy rattlesnakes
1.1 dumeril's boas
3.3 corns (miami, okatee, snow, caramel, 2 creamsicle)
1.1 jungle corns
0.1 american alligator
0.2 ferrets
0.2 degus

He was talking about timber rattlers.

From what Ive heard, crofab is more effective than the old antivenom.

You have emergency protocols, which is good, but have you spoken to your doctor yet? Unless the snakes you keep are found locally, it is likely that your doctor has never treated for that species. Be sure that he/she understands your protocol just in case. I would also check on the local supplies and where snake bite patients are taken locally. This may reduce time if the closest hospital is just going to transfer you. Find out who stocks more a/v, and which hospital is best to go to, and review your protocol with the doctor.

Sera & Metalpest:

I've been involved in scientific research (Cell Biology) professionally all my adult life. If I make a claim about something and say it's fact I usually back it up with a reference. With this said, I mentioned that it was reported (I have no hard evidence)that Crofab was less effective treating some species on North American Pit Vipers (Crotalids)than the older A/V made by Wyeth Laboratories.

See this thread: http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=574429,574429

The closest thing to "fact" on this thread is the comments by Jim Harrison. Maybe by others, but I know JH by reputation so I can make this statement with some certainty.

Snake venoms vary within a species,within populations, and depending on what the snake is feeding on. This make is very tough for the A/V manufacturers to produce effective treatments. Dr. Fry can attest to this fact.

To really find out how effective the two are on venoms of NA Pit Vipers we would need access to the data collected by the A/V manufacturers used for FDA approval. I'm sure the "circulars" for each is available online at the respective companies websites. Without getting into the differences between the two I can say this:

The bottom line is don't panic, they will both work when needed.

I hope this clarifys the issue somewhat.

Al

Hi Gang:

Here's the real deal on CroFab taken from the CroFab(Protherics) Website. The info describes CroFabs ability to neutralize venom from different snakes. In table #2 the lower the number the better.

Table 2. ED50 Values for CroFab in Mice
To determine the crossneutralizing ability of CroFab to protect mice from the lethal effects of venom from clinically important species.

Separate groups of mice were injected with increasing doses of
CroFab pre-mixed with two LD50 of each venom tested.

ED50 for each venom

C. atrox 5
C. adamanteus 8
C. scutulatus 15
A. piscivorus 3
C. h. atricaudatus 7
C. v. helleri 122
C. m. molossus 25
A. c. contortrix 4
S. m. barbouri 7
C. h. horridus 6

Based on the data from this study in mice, CroFab has relatively good cross protection against venoms not used in the immunization of flocks used to produce it, except for C. v. helleri, where a very high dose is required, and for C. m. molossus, where a moderately high dose is required.

Hope this clear things up

Al

Wow I didnt realize it was that ineffective on helleris. Dr. Bush said that crofab doesnt work well on some helleri bites, I think it was the ones which are showing neurotoxicity. Something needs to change because some populations of helleris seem to be developing more toxic venoms. I was going to tell you that that was the only snake Ive heard of crofab not being fully effective on, but I think that chart showed you already.

Im surprised scutes are that high, since they are one of snakes contributing venom. From what Ive seen on venom er, scutes dont seem to pose a big threat when treated with crofab. The low venom yield seems to make it easy to treat with crofab, at least from what I saw.

And somebody here would probably know, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that Wyeth was no longer going to be produced?

Yes, this is true. It was not profitable enough to continue. I was told this by one of the worker who assayed venom in that unit.

I think there is a formal announcment floating around somewhere on a website.

Al

Sir; Being newt huy, I'm not quite sure if this what you are referring to or need. I've only included the excerpts from the full items that specifically refer to Wyeth. Chronilogical order. W

= = = = =
THE TENNESSEAN (Nashville, Tennessee) 12 December 03 Protherics bites back (Naomi Snyder)
When then 4-year-old Emma Murphy was rushed into a hospital in Tucson last year with a severe rattlesnake bite, the doctor brought in to supervise her care had a special knowledge of her condition.
He had helped develop the antivenin that would save her.
''She was a sick little girl,'' said medical toxicologist John B. Sullivan. ''I've seen a lot of sick kids, and she was one of the few very sick ones I've seen.''
Sullivan pumped her little body with 44 vials of CroFab, a drug manufactured by an English company with U.S. headquarters in Brentwood. A typical adult dose is 10 to 15 vials.
CroFab is the only rattlesnake antivenin on the market in the United States, after competitor Wyeth took its drug off the market last year. Sales have taken off for the CroFab drug, which company officials attribute to a growing awareness in the medical community about the snakebite antidote.

THE COURIER (Houma, Louisiana) 14 April 02 Don't get bitten by poisonous snakes; local antivenin stocks outdated (Kimberly Krupa)
Snakebite treatment should be supportive until envenoming is suspected from the clinical signs. Specific treatment involves administration of antivenin, said Hutchinson.
Russell LaMontagne, a spokesman for Savage Laboratories, the New York company the produces CroFab, attributed the medicine shortage to a "problem with one company who is in charge of one of the manufacturing steps."
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration singled out the company that does the filling and freeze-drying of CroFab because inaccuracies ruined an entire batch of medicine, he said. The FDA put a three-month delay on production.
"This is happening because this is a new product, and in any new product there are going to be kinks in the process," said LaMontagne.
Asked if CroFab would be available to hospitals across the country by early June, as predicted several weeks ago, LaMontagne said, "at the earliest, we hope. But we still don't know."
In a news release sent to hospitals last month, Protherics and Savage Laboratories said "it is possible there will be no CroFab available to the United States this snakebite season."
The snakebite season is April to October, when outdoor activities are most popular.
The shortage also has been caused by an unexpected demand for CroFab, which entered the market October 2000, said LaMontagne.
"When we came out with this, we didn't assume we would be supplying all the hospitals in the country," he said.
But when CroFab became popular in U.S. hospitals, Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories soon announced it would stop producing its 50-year-old polyvalent antivenin, for years the principal medicine used to treat snakebites.
Wyeth's antivenin was made from horse serum, which caused allergic reactions in some people. Part of CroFab's popularity came from the fact that it is less likely to cause serum sickness, allowing physicians to care for patients who would normally not be treated, said LaMontagne.
CroFab is administered to patients through a series of injections. The average patient receives four to six doses per snakebite.

ARIZONA DAILY STAR (Tucson) 17 April 02 Big rattler bites girl, 4; she seems OK (Thomas Stauffer)
Since 1954, doctors have treated snakebites with an antivenin derived from horse blood commonly known as Wyeth Serum. While effective in neutralizing snake venom, Wyeth Serum carries several proteins that can cause serious side effects, Sullivan said.
"Wyeth used an old purification process that didn't get rid of all the extraneous proteins, and those cause what they call serum sickness, which can last for a couple of days," he said.
Serum sickness can even be life-threatening for people very sensitive to antivenin, Sullivan said.
Sullivan and Dr. Findlay Russell of the UA started working on a different purification process about 18 years ago. Protherics Inc. paid Sullivan and Russell royalties and developed CroFab, which was approved for use by the Food and Drug Administration (news - web sites) in October 2000. The company began manufacturing the antivenin a year later.
The improved purification process invented by Sullivan and Russell resulted in an antivenin that is not only much less allergenic than Wyeth Serum but does a better job of targeting snake venom in the body and neutralizing it, Iserson said.
In late March, Protherics released a statement to hospitals that shipments of CroFab would be delayed for two months due to a problem in freeze-drying the antivenin, Mellor said.
"They said they should be releasing more by June, but that the process could take longer," she said.
Meanwhile, the company that had produced Wyeth Serum won't ship the drug in May or June, Mellor said.
The company may have stopped producing Wyeth Serum for economic reasons due to the emergence of CroFab as the drug of choice for snakebites, Mellor said.

NORTH COUNTY TIMES (Escondido, California) 28 April 02 Local hospitals out of antivenom (Henri Brickey)
And veterinarians get a special stock of the serum specially bottled for animals, which is still available and cheaper than Cro Fab. The veterinary serum is created specifically for animals by Fort Dodge Laboratories Inc., a division of Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories, makers of the human Antivenin.

ODESSA AMERICAN (Texas) 21 June 02 Shortage of antivenin could end by next week (David J. Lee)
“Wyeth, the makers of Antivenin, which until last year was the only snakebite antivenom available in the United States, has apparently left the market,” said Russell Lamontagne, Savage Labs public information officer. “When Crofab was launched last year Savage did not anticipate having to supply the entire market. Crofab is a complex biotechnology product that takes up to two years to produce.”

NATIONAL POST (Toronto, Ontario) 13 August 02 Cottage country rattled by spate of snake bites - Doctors warn of shortage of medicine (Odile Nelson)
The ministry used to run a provincial antivenin depot from which it distributed a Canadian-made medicine to area hospitals on a case-by-case basis. But last summer Wyeth-Ayerst Canada stopped producing the medicine, so the ministry began buying a more expensive brand from the United States.

ODESSA AMERICAN (Texas) 02 November 02 Snakebite treatment shortage finally over (Aaron Bensonhaver)
Wyeth, who used to be the top producer of snakebite serums, pulled out of the market unexpectedly in late 2000. CroFab batches take about two years to produce, so when Wyeth disappeared, the weight put on Savage Labs was very heavy, LaMontagne said.

SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE (California) 14 February 01 First The Rattle, Then The Fangs - But do not fear, there's a new snakebite treatment (Paul McHugh)
Wyeth, a division of American Home Products Corporation, has announced it intends to gently withdraw from the antivenin market. This year, it will focus on producing a five-year supply of rattlesnake antivenin, and a five-year supply of coral snake antivenin.
At the end of 2001, it will discontinue the antivenin operation, leaving it for other firms to adopt the public service role.
Sales of antivenin are relatively small; it has never been a highly profitable product for Wyeth. Protherics, however, can look for an initial rush of sales, as stocks are replaced with CroFab.

LOS ANGELES TIMES (California) 12 May 01 Rattlers Aplenty, but Snakebite Serum Is Scarce - As the reptiles wake from hibernation, the makers of antivenin announce they've sold out of treatment. Area hospitals are in short supply. (Noaki Schwartz)
In the meantime, Wyeth said it expects to have a very limited supply of its serum available in July “on an emergency basis only” and will stop production of antivenin entirely by the end of the year. Doug Petkus, a spokesman for Wyeth-Ayerst, said the company's decision was “based on a review of manufacturing capacity and human resource issues,” not economic concerns.

SACRAMENTO BEE (California) 05 July 01 Year of the snake: Lots of rattler activity, with busy months yet to come (Gwendolyn Crump)
Wyeth-Ayerst stopped production of its Antivenin Polyvalent last fall after what the company called an FDA “inspection issue.” It committed to make a year's worth of its antivenom before stopping production.
Doug Petkus, a spokesman for Wyeth-Ayerst, said the decision was based on a review of manufacturing capacity and resource issues.
“We felt the market was (prepared) for our exit,” Petkus said.

ABC NEWS (USA) 07 August 00 Snake-Bite Crisis
Steven Pike, medical director of emergency services at Tucson's St. Joseph's Hospital, said that if the hospital doesn't get a resupply soon, area hospitals may have to develop some sort of rationing system for the drug.
The shortage is being blamed on the drug's only manufacturer, Wyeth-Ayerst.
The Pennsylvania-based company was forced to close its plant for renovations this summer after sterilization problems were discovered by federal inspectors, company officials have said.
Wyeth stopped all production of antivenin last month, and no more will be produced until early next year. Until then, the company will supply the drug on an emergency basis only.

Thanks very much I looked for the info but was unsuccessful.

Al

Now all we need is to get rid of Crofab & have South Africa or OZ make our AV for us (that way it would actually work half decent).
-----
Chad Bachman

Chad:

Yes, good thought but also consider the price of a vial of Crofab; $1650.00 the last time I checked. If they made A/V for other snakes, ie: African snakes, many of us could not muster the $$ to keep it on hand. Lets say 30 vials for a Gabby bite at the cost of $49,500. Plus the market would be limited because the Africans could not even pay for it.

This also points out the cost of a bite if you get tagged by a big atrox or helleri here in the USA. Your insurance company would not want to pay the bill if they found out it was a "Captive animal", think about it!

Al

....Let the SAVP manufacture serum for N.A. crotalids, so it:

1) Would reasonably cheap (is it still around $40/vial for SAIMR Polyvalent?)

2) Would actually be effective.

Seems like the prorities of drug companies these days are, if we can't make money from it, its not worth persuing. Treating medical emergencies seems to be secondary to making money. The mentality of countries where snake bite is medically significant(South Africa, Costa Rica, Brazil, etc), is quite different where antivenom is a NECESSITY, and not just a side project.

Matt:

I see this all of the time too. Their called "Orphan Drugs" not commercially profitable because they are not widely needed.

Many drugs are very cheap overseas. Why you ask? Simply the American public has deeper pockets than other populations, so our government lets the pharmacutical companies rape us for every last cent they can get.

For instance: The drugs that treat HIV infection. The US Drug companies wanted to charge the Africans $100/day for the drugs. The drug companies changed their tune when the African nations said to "hell" with your patents we'll make it ourselves for a dollar/day. By the way; Americans and their insurance companies still pay the $100.00/day for these drugs.

Same deal with a new class of drugs to treat Colon Cancer. The old drugs work but not as well cost about $3000.00 per treatment. The new drug cost about $30,000.00/ treatment but work extremely well with less side effects. How many average people will be given the new drugs? Only if they have deep pockets or have a very good health plan.

Then the FDA says these same drugs are not the "same" and may not be safe to use. Hogwash! The FDA lets many un-safe drug on the market to start and then when hundreds of people are injured or sickened then they remove it. Don't kid yourself, the FDA is in the pocket of the Pharmacutical industry too.

See...you went and got me started!

Al

Matt's right phobos, I think Chad meant it the other way around, considering that Crofab can cause some nasty effects weeks after the bite regarding white blood cell counts, etc.

I've heard some keepers say that they would actually rather recieve the Costa Rican polyvalent for N.A. crotalid bites...

The costa rican is also dirt cheap, practically free at $25 or so a vial.

The sad thing is that for less than a thousand dollars, the guy who got tagged by the Lachesis would have probably been in much better condition now had he stocked his own...any updates on his situation?

How well does Costa Rican poly work on NA crotalid bites?

That I don't know, as it's only made with Lachesis stenophrys, Bothrops asper and Crotalus d. durissus. I do know it's VERY good at treating Lachesis bites, and reasonably good for Bothrops, except that its not much help in counteracting necrosis....a Bothrops bite will still result in extensive tissue damage.

I guess if you can assume the N.A. crotalid venom is similar in composition to C. d. durissus (i.e., maybe Mojave, tigris and some horridus would fit this comparison) it may work, but I couldn't even wager a guess as too how well.

Hi:

This "snippet" is from the Wyeth circular. Maybe we can get a feel from this what the Costa Rican A/V might be like against NA Croats. It seemed to have a broader spectrum of coverage than Crofab. Although to get a complete picture we would have to get some data on neutralization like the Crofab circular has included.

I don't know if the Costa Rican A/V circular has any data included. Matt..do you know? Or have a company name/website?

Al

COMPOSITION
Antivenin (Crotalidae) Polyvalent, Wyeth, is a refined and concentrated preparation of serum globulins obtained by fractionating blood from healthy horses immunized with the following venoms: Crotalus adamanteus (Eastern diamond rattlesnake), C. atrox (Western diamond
rattlesnake), C. durissus terrificus (tropical rattlesnake, Cascabel), and Bothrops atrox (“Fer-delance’’).

Antivenin (Crotalidae) Polyvalent, Wyeth (hereinafter referred to as Antivenin) contains protective substances capable of neutralizing the toxic effects of venoms of crotalids (pit vipers) native to North, Central, and South America, including rattlesnakes (Crotalus, Sistrurus); copperhead and cottonmouth moccasins (Agkistrodon), including A. halys of Korea and Japan;
the Fer-de-lance and other species of Bothrops; the tropical rattler (Crotalus durissus and similar species); the Cantil (A. bilineatus); and bushmaster (Lachesis mutus) of South and Central America.

I didnt know Wyeth treated south american crots as well, too bad nobody had wyeth for this bite.

Ooops...Sorry Chad, I guess I should drink more coffee in the morning before I start reading posts. My apologies again. Matt & Psilocybe thanks for the wake up call.

In that light, I didn't hear that Crofab caused white cell abnormalities as a delayed side effect. I will email Dr. Russell and see if he can elaborate on this side effect.

Bob may have been better off with Wyeth Crotalid until the Costa Rican was at hand.

Cheers,

Al

Crofab if used in the right doses works on most NA pitvipers ( less effective on timbers and blacktails) well but the expense is a big problem.
For most new world pit vipers Bioclon works very well and less expensive at this time.( But this maybe changing soon)

I remember when people were saying how great Crofab would be compared to Wyeth. All drugs have some short comings. Crofab will have to improve or Bioclon will take over.

By the way 20 vials of Wyeth and 28 vials of Costa Rica antisera were used on the Lachesis envenomation.

Jim Harrison

Whats bioclon? Ive never heard of that one.

Will he recover from the Lachesis envenomation? What condition is he in now?

Bioclon is the Mexican company that makes antiserum. They make a pitviper polyvalent that has shown good efficacy against most NA pitvipers.
Due to confidentiality concerns, we can't say anything about the bite victim.
-Kristen

Yes, and the Mexican AV is by far much better at treating our native venomous. I have no clue as to why they still use Wyeth & Crofab on some bites??? I guess it's the American way of keeping the cash-flow in the hands of the US government.

It may not be effective with all NA envenomations, but for the most part, it is a much more effective AV than the other two AV's mentioned.
-----
Chad Bachman

Holy Serum Sickness Batman!! If the bite didn't do him in; the treatment might.

Al

I posted about the "northeastern" antivenom bank down below last night but I doubt you got the chance to see it. To sum it up I got less than a dozen responces to the post concerning the establishment of another antivenom bank, of that dozen only around 3 (THREE!!!!!) were serious about helping. This passion of ours is soon to be banned and all the individuals that didnt want to lift a finger to prevent it, will be the biggest crybabies in the forums. I have lost all hope in the venomous community, it is no longer a community, all the lack of respect, as well as all the other BS has put us on a path to self destruction. Federal legislation will happen within 5 years.
I have put the antivenom bank project on the back burner ( way back) due to lack of interest, and the website as well, until the "community" steps up and gets involved.

Shawn
www.americanvenomous.com

Federal legislation? Are you serious? Someone posted here before saying that feds would never intervene because it violates some right or something, so it is left up to the states. Why do you say federal legislation is on its way?

If its a Federal Ban or if the states fall one by one? Or even city by city, Its all the same outcome. When one of the less knowlegeble keepers ( I'm being VERY polite), lets and innocent bystander take a hit, say for instance a child ( and yes, it will happen), you can bet federal legislation could easily be a possibility, very quickly.
Either way, my guess is within 5 years, it will be nearly impossible to keep venomous, if possible at all. Florida could even fall, and has several areas within the state already banning "dangerous" exotics.
I'm not being an alarmist, but take a look at where this "hobby" is going. The bites, the disreputable "dealers, importers, breeders", the lack of involvment by serious "role model" types of individuals for new keepers, the whole venomoid issue, I could go on and on...
Shawn

Let us all hope he makes a full recovery. What does the "Venomoid" issue have to do with anything? If the animals were Venomoid, no one would be alarmed by a bite from a HOT species. If more people kept Venomoids, the hobby wouldn't suffer the consequences after a HOT bite (as seen in Dayton OH). Anyone - no matter how much experience - can get bit. Surgeries (necessary & not) are performed on animals & humans everyday - it is NOT unethical!! . I don't want to change the topic of this thread - if you have a rebuttal about this statement, please go to the Viperdae forum & respond AFTER reading my threads.

Do infact have everything to do with a ban....for many reasons, not necessarily the shallow ones you sited. However, I am in no mood to get into that discussion, so dont attempt to antagonize me with your view on it, as I did not state my view for just that reason. Whether or not YOU feel they are ethical is totally irrelevant. Its "others" perception, especially those not into herps have opinions on the treatment of animals.
If you cant think of the several "other" reasons that venomoids could help to give cause for a ban, I wont take the time to explain it to you.
Come on now, think hard, I know you can do it, and heres a hint-avoid the controversial part of the venomoid issue(the act itself). And maybe learn to understand what I had written.

You can post whatever venomoid BS that you want to after this post, as I will not lower myself into the venomoid discusion. I can tell by your uncalled for defensiveness that your just looking to start the debate. There is no debate for serious venomous keepers and true herpers at heart. PERIOD.
Now go on your little venomoid rant...blah blah blah...

if it was a Venomoid that bit him we wouldn't have this problem or the problem we had in Dayton. I'm not saying all Venomous snakes should be Venomoid but you bring up other’s perception. Do you really feel that your neighbor would rather have a house full of HOT snakes next door instead of a house full of Venomoids? Which do you think they would prefer - talk about common sense.....

In areas that ban venomous , venomoids are also illegal. Law enforcement can not look at a snake and tell it is venomoid so it is easier just to ban all species of venomous.

Jim Harrison

how many times have you seen "Man Bit by Venomoid Snake" in the media? Doesn't happen. I'm not saying it is alright to keep Venomoids where HOTS are illegal. I am saying they do not draw the media attention that leads to the outlawing of "Dangerous Animals" because the animal is no longer life (or limb) threatening. If the animal was a Venomoid in both instances, law enforcement, legislators, hospital, or PEOPLE WITH THEIR OWN ANTI-VENIN would never have been bothered w/ this issue & the (negative) press wouldn't be all over it.

they ban Venomous (dangerous) species because of the risk someone is going to be envenomated - NOT because they don't want them to get bit by an animal that has been surgically rendered harmless. AND YES, Venomoid bites do hurt but are not going to kill you. I was just bitten by a Boxer on the face & had to receive stitches. Are they going to outlaw dogs because of this? NO!! Why? Because more than likely, I am not going to die from this. Same principles apply - except not many Venomoid bites are going to require a hospital visit.

venomous snakes are not. You can't, venomoids and venomous are the same to the legislators no matter where you live. So calling venomoids "harmless" and "less likely to kill" is not going to work to the lawmakers. Come to NY with one of your venomoids and let the state know about it, then tell them you don't have a license to keep them and see what happens. You still don't apparently realize that a cobra is still a cobra to them. If you can prove me wrong please feel free, and while you're at it, find me a legitimate, LICENSED vet who is doing the surgery on the snakes. You can't find either. I STILL HAVEN'T FOUND SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO EXCEPT MY CHALLENGE. Can you do it Joliff? No, but you sure have no problem selling a $30 copperhead for $250 or more, which completely reinforces my feelings about people who sell venomoids, REGARDLESS if you keep regular hots or not.
If you venomoiders care so much about the laws and people who kept these "harmless" snakes, then you'd be doing the community a great service by charging REGULAR prices for your "harmless" venomoids. Why don't you do that? CAN ANY VENOMOIDER ANSWER THAT QUESTION? Why, I'll tell you why, because you make money by reinforcing the fact that venomoids are "harmless" to INGNORANT people who don't know about hots or want to take the time to learn how to handle.

No one said Venomoids are legal where Hots snakes are not. No one said anything about legislators recognizing the difference. I am saying, legislation happens after people are envenomated by a Venomous snake!! This is to keep it from being a re-occuring problem. Again, I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLENGE - because of TOS regs - I am not going to name names but there is a licensed Vet. that advertises on kingsnake who does the procedure the proper way (w/ nerveblocks, all the proper meds, & even implants). He is from NY – he is the only person I know doing it legitimately. There is your one person!! If you want his email address or phone #, contact me. If you want to talk to him yourself, come to the Hamburg show. I didn’t realize you controlled the prices of Copperheads. I guess you would expect a licensed Vet. to do the surgery for free. Anesthesia, meds. time, training, etc. for nothing – that makes as much sense as the rest of your ramblings. I am not making $220 on the Copperhead – I bought it that way & don’t mind paying someone for their time. Besides, it makes much more sense to pay $170,000 for a hospital bill than to pay $220 and not have to worry about the risk huh? What about the cost of anti-venom? What about the value of your daughter’s life (or limb)? You have divulged your intelligence level by asking someone to sell them for the same price of a HOT. Have you ever had surgery? Was it free? Can you go to the hospital & say “I’d like to have my newborn son circumcised but I don’t want to pay for it.” They would assume you were an idiot & I would assume they were right.

but since illegal venomoid creators feel that they are doing the community a great service, then they should. And, let's face it, the surgery, from what I last heard when vets actually have done it, only costs around $100. Why the hike up in prices? Apparently you still don't understand ANY of my points, even the ones that didn't have anything to do with the fact that I'm against venomoids (refer to my initial post about the pics),
however, I didn't expect you to understand them. I'm done as far as the subject goes. As far as the "vet" from NY goes, prove it.
Anyone can say their snakes are done by a DVM on the kingsnake classified's, hell, everyone does. My e-mail is on here, why don't you just send me some info? Better yet, if you can find a licensed vet on the kingsnake classifieds, that has done the surgery safely on a routine basis, that will let me watch the surgery myself, not only will I buy one of his snakes, but I will take out an ad on kingsnake.com and endorse him myself.
The fact is, there isn't one on here, if there was, he/she should be doing whatever they can to stop the illegal hacks from performing surgeries they are not qualified to do. If you knew a plastic surgeon that suspected someone was illegally performing surgery on a person, do you think that doctor would keep quiet?
No. So why is it that the licensed vet isn't turning people in?
It's simple, there isn't one in here.
And cancel what I said earlier. There is no way I could watch a snake being cut up, or endorse someone who does it for profit, regardless if they are licensed or not. It's amazing that noone actually takes the time to think about whether the snake is harmed, people are too worried about harming themselves by a loaded snake. My point, people shouldn't have hot snakes if they are worried about the inherent risks. If are worried that it may harm you or someone else, that means you are not properly trained or properly securing the snake, so you should buy Venomous Snakes of the Western Hemisphere, the pictures can't harm you.

I'm in my own little world where people don't harm snakes so they can cuddle and "interact" with them, and then use the justification that they are safer and they can be used to educate. Not only have I not found one license VET that will do the surgery, I have yet to find someone who actually uses their snakes to "educate" in public. I do see alot of "interaction"
though, on the classifieds. I guess I'm just as passionate about the snakes well-being as you are about keeping and selling venomoids.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=40&de=257044

Educate yourself.....

Like you would have the slightest idea what kind of costs are involved when done by an actual Vet. You have repeatedly stated that you do not even know of a Vet. that does the surgery - SO how would you have any idea how much it would cost to have it done the proper way?? Proves that you are talking out of the wrong end - at least you know what you are good at. You need a breathe mint cause I can smell the gas through my PC.

one of the only licenced vets ?there are a few,however we do not need harassing phone calls and picketers, from gass passers like you !Mr. Jolliff HAS given you what you asked,end of story.
you are so beligerant in making your point heard,you wont listen to whats being said,This is not over what the law sees venomoids as...ITS ABOUT THE FACT NO TRUE VENOMOID BITE HAS EVER CAUSED A LAWMAKER TO OUTLAW ANYTHING !gADS GET THE DEFFICATION OUT OF YOUR EARS(IN THIS CASE YOUR EYES,MABEY YOU NEED TO COME IN TO OUR CLINIC SO I CAN EXTRACT THE STICK THATS BLOCKING YOU RECTALY.
I apologise in advance for my comments,but this guy is FULL of wind.
Thanks Mr. Jolliff

I wasn't going to respond to you luvthemherps, but since you were so eloquent with your words, I just can't resist.
Licenced = Licensed
Gass = Gas
Beligerant = Belligerent
Deffication = Defecation
Mabey = Maybe
Rectaly = Rectally
Apologise = Apologize
Yep, you're definitely a venomoider. Your clinic? What exactly do you do at the "clinic"? I don't mind being insulted, but at least if you're going to insult me, try not to look like a complete idiot while doing so. It's pretty freakin' annoying trying to read crap like that. You just keep reinforcing my opinions of you people. At least Jolliff can somewhat hold a conversation with some level of intelligence. Please don't respond to this, because I don't want to have to go through the pain of reading your drivel again.

procedure in the past, way before it became popular like it is now, and yes, I have heard that it roughly was in the $100 range.
I also said, if you re-read the last post, that I have never seen a licensed Vet on kingsnake.com. As far as that smell goes, it's probably coming from your upper lip.

on the upper lip thing. I'm rubber - your glue or should I say "YOUR MOMMA!!!". UR funny. I am saying if you do not know of any Vets. that do the surgery, how do you know how much one would cost if done properly (by a Vet.)? U wouldn't have a clue = you are clueless - so stop trying to pretend to know what you are talking about......it is clear that you don't.

That really sucks. I dont have hots yet, but I plan to get in on it when I move out of California. The system here makes it nearly impossible to get a permit unless you are a zoo. What was the hobby like before? I mean, there have always been bites, right? Something will go wrong, even to the best keepers. They should be more into stopping of illegal keeping instead of proposing stricter laws. By assuming liability, why cant we keep them? I hope the hobby is still alive when Im ready to keep venomous, I dont want to miss out due to mistakes of others and poor laws produced from them.

Don't try California...exotics are illegal there too...

Al

Yes, I know, thats why I said "when I move". I want to be a part of the venomous community but so far CA has hindered that dream.

Just so we are all clear, I wont keep them without the proper knowledge. I dont want to be one of these people that are getting bit. Ive done a lot of venomous handling in the field, and Id say Im pretty good at it, but I would certainly need more assistance before I start keeping them. I was training to keep rattlesnakes (natives rattlesnakes are not restricted here) but my mentor seems to have fallen off the face of the Earth. Rather than try to keep them now, I am seeking someone else to guide me.