Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK heres the deal, I know a guy that has a bunch of neonate rubers that just hatched, and he lives in Ca... He is a privte individual and wants to sell his snakes... I want his snakes but when contacting him he wants to ship via ground frieght.. I said thats a no no...but hey what do I know..

Is there any other way to ship Hots besides delta or I think Northwest?

Friehgt isnt legal is it?

Does anybody know of a verified delta shipper or otherwise that would be willing to ship the snakes for me from this guy so that everything is legal eagle.. Im willing to pay the normal shipping charges etc

Thanks for your time
SIncerly
PatrickR

If you are interested in doing everything "by the book", then you cannot buy the rubers in the first place....Why? Because Ca. law prohibits the commercialization of any crotalid. In fact, Ca. law states that a resident may not possess more than 2 of any native crotalid...So, the guy that has the neonates (not hathlings! ) is already in violation of Ca. law.

IF you knowingly purchase crotalids from Ca., then you are also in violation of the law. My recommendation to you is to acquire your snake(s) thru other means....If you purchase them from him, you are as guilty as he is in violating Ca. law. The only way to legally acquire these animals is if he was to GIVE them to you as a gift, with no return compensation on your part. Or, you could take a trip out to Ca., and wild-collect 2 of your own.

It sucks, but those are the facts....

-Kris

PS- I'd be very wary of doing business with him at all, as from what you have typed it doesn't appear that he is at all hesitant to violate the law if he can make a few bucks......

I appreciate your insight and thank you for telling me what I did not know.. I will not be doing any bussiness with this man due to what you have told me.

Thanx again
PR

Not a problem at all Patrick...

There are legal ways to acquire your crote(s), and while the shipping may be a tad bit expensive, that's just the breaks nowadays....

There are many good, reputable breeders of a wide variety of crotes out there, and I'm sure that you'll find the right one for you. Let us know how it all turns out and what animal you decide on...

-Kris

PS- Come on out to Az and we'll find ya an atrox if that's what ya want!

If I were to come out to Az then I would kindly help myself to some mountain variety molossus (yellow and black) ... but that would be also illegal as far as my knowlege goes because you cant take hots out of the state of Az from my understanding which Is why I cant find what I truely want which is that in CB (sigh)

take hots out of the state of Az. You can purchase a hunting license and collect up to four per open season species and export them. You do not need a license if you are not field collecting, ie; if someone were to gift you a snake you do not need a hunting license to be in possession. One cannot buy, sell or trade native Az. species.

As far as molossus go there are very nice ones much closer to your home in west Texas. They may not look quite like the mountain phase Az. animals but many are just as beautiful and striking in appearance. The key is to be patient and look at a few first. Don't take the first one you find. One thing to remember with wild caught molossus is that they can be very difficult to get feeding.

Ahh...the classic black and gold molossus....truly my favorite crotalid species.....

Yep, Rich was dead on with what he stated regarding the export laws of Az...As long as the animal(s) were acquired legally (i.e. wild collected with a valid hunting permit and/or given as a gift), it is perfectly legal for you to take the animals with you when you go back home.

Rich is also right on the money with the molossus feeding issue. I've had a few that were WC adults that wouldn't eat at all (that is until I threw a gerbil in with them!) I have had very few molossus turn down a gerbil...With a little work, these animals can be worked over to scented mice and then to unscented mice.

-Geez....that Rich is a pretty smart guy, huh?

-Kris

Maybe I mis represented myself somewhere... I live in the midwest, Indiana to be precise so no where near Tx which i why I cant go hot herp hunting, the only thing we have hear is massasauga (endangered) and horridus which I belive is also endangered hear byut still far away from me near kentucky

for some reason I was thinking you were in Oklahoma.

When I had my WC molossus it ate every time if I left the lights very dim and left the room. When I would watch it wouldn't want anything to do with it for the longest time. Great snakes though. deffinately one of my favorites.

Actually, I dont think he can wild collect snakes if he is not a resident of california. Ive also been told that there is not limit on rattlesnakes in california, and Ive also been told the limit is two. The law is vague on the number of rattlesnakes you can collect in cali. It is certain though that he cannot sell them. Id say turn him in for a reward.

Well, all the literature I've read regarding this does not mention non-residents being prohibited from collecting animals...In fact, it wouldn't make financial sense for Ca. Game & Fish to prohibit out-of-state residents from collecting reptiles, as one needs a valid hunting permit to do so, (with most reptiles anyway) and an out-of-state resident will invariably pay more for an out-of-state permit.

As far as the bag limit, I am certain that it is 2 per person per species of crotalid.

You're right on regarding the commercialization part tho!

-Kris

Allow me to cite for you the law regarding take:

"Only the following reptiles may be takesn under the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the restictions in this section. The limit for each of the species listed below is two,....

(b) No sportfishing license is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake"

Some see that as saying there is a limit, others see it as saying the limit is two for those collected under authority of a license. Since no license is required, the limit shouldnt apply. Also, it says ANY rattlesnake. As I said, the law is vague and unclear. The resticted species law also does not limit crotalids to two of each species.

I am pretty sure that you need a license to remove them though. I came across someone from out of state collecting mojaves under a permit from the fish and game allowing them to take 100 mojaves for research. From what Ive been told, you cannot come into the state and take reptiles out of California.

I am fully aware of that portion regarding take...However, I believe there is another portion that specifically states that it is unlawful to possess more than two of any native species of crotalid...I do remember seeing this in print, and now it's just a matter of finding it in my many books!

As far as the law reads, I take it to mean that one does not need a hunting license to capture their crotalids (2 to a species)....I don't read it to mean that simply because there is no license needed to collect them, that one is carte-blanche on the numbers collected. Again, perhaps a matter of interpretation here, but that's how the law comes across to me. I was also aware that a hunting license was not required for the collection of crotalids, hence I included "most reptiles anyway" at the end of this portion of my original post, as a hunting/fishing license IS required for the collection of many other types of reptiles and/or phibs.....

As far as the exportation of legally acquired reptiles out of Ca., I'd have to look this up as well, but in all my reading I do not recall any specific ordinance or law prohibiting it....

-Kris

Good to know that there is no law regarding exportation of legally aquired animals. I interpreted that only the three species which can be propagated were the only ones available for export.

As far as crotalids go, I dont know why they would allow anyone to take them as long as they only take two. The lack of license makes it sound to me that they dont care who takes however many. To be on the safe side, I wouldnt take more than two. When I spoke with a warrden, he too was uncertain as to the law and pointed out that it was vague and it is basically up to the officer or f&g personnel to interpret the law on site.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=40&de=252854

Found this in a very recent KS classifieds... although he is from California he says hes legal and even says he ships Delta...

Would he be legal? and how?

By the way, what is "L.E"
as in the post:
"I have all 100% legal undertakings, so PLEASE do not call me and ask me to "bend" the rules. (This goes doubly for L.E. trying to get me to break the law. Give up, guys; I'm on your side.)"

Thanks again guys you've been a great help and source of education

OK.OK.OK... SO the name Danny noble popped into my head after I looked at that add again...and it turns out he is the same guy I was refering to in the first post on this subject.... I originally contacted him becasue of his add on SHHS website Venomousreptiles.org

His two original post from there are
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/classifieds/detail/10370
after contacting him about that he said he wanted $100 for the ADULT snakes and he NEEDED to get rid of them because he broke his tibia and couldn't get to caring for them right...during the conversation he asked... "wanna hear them rattle"...(the sound of an opening cage) and then I presumed he began poking them???(just an assumption) but he couldn't get them to rattle then I asked about shipping and he said it would be better for me to look up transportation via ground fright or something... So I figured something wasn't quite right with this guy

Next: this post...
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/classifieds/detail/10581
and now his babies have arrived and miraculously he can care for the adults AND babies and wants to sell them....

NOW: he posts on KS and hes a verified shipper with delta out of Cali???

Does something not smell right to you guys??

Thanx again... I hope im not just blowing smoke or creating a unneccesary problem... Just a friendly inquery

Patrick...

LE=Law Enforcement (as in CA. Fish and Game)

Secondly, I have no idea how he could "legally" do this...Ca. law is VERY specific in that NO crotalid species can be commercialized...Unless he had some sort of waiver/permit from the Ca. Fish and Game (HIGHLY improbable), I fail to see how he can ethically state that he resides in Ca. and is selling Ca. native crotes, while at the same time NOT being in violation of the law.....Unless of course he ISN'T selling them from Ca., but even then he is in violation if the animals originated in Ca, because it is illegal to sell them, regardless of where they are now.

I'd steer clear of this guy......

-Kris