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I hatched 7 eggs from a total 25 eggs laid by my lavender corn in two clutches this season. The adult male lavender was one purchased from Rich Z. two years back at the Tampa show. He happened to have a small but noticable kink about 2/3 down towards his tail, but no one seemed to believe it would be genetic. This year I put him with my female for her first breeding. The first clutch was 16 total eggs, 9 good eggs and and 7 slugs. Of the 9 eggs that incubated 3 actually hatched and all 3 were kinked. The remaining 6 were to kinked to hatch and died in the egg fully formed but badly kinked. The Second clutch was 9 total and all appeared to be good on appearance. Of the 9 eggs, 6 made it through incubation. The remaining 6 went 56 days and 4 kinked lavenders hached out while 2 died in the egg. All 4 babies that hatched are kinked as well. I would not only say it is genetic but also appears to be dominant.

Jim

Great example of the "Don't breed genetically flawed snakes, make them pets" philosophy. I have seen this more times than not. If someone tells you a defect isn't going to be genetic and they haven't tested it, they are wrong for doing so. Kinks just don't "just happen" very often. I group kinks the same way I do one eyed snakes, two headed snakes etc.
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Jeff West

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

Did you happen to have any other corn eggs in the same incubator at the same time that didn't have this problem to rule out the incubation environment?

I may well own the worlds most kinked living snake - a pewter corn I manually hatched in 1998. My vet doesn't think he moves like he is in pain but he is kinked from head to tail and looks just awful. I still struggle with whether or not it would be best to put him down but he seems to be doing well although he requires pre-killed prey and assistance shedding. I'm trying to remember but I don't think he had any even moderately kinked siblings out of a fairly good sample size so I think at least some times it can be more random.

Do you know if lavender corns often tend to kink? What was the female you bred the kinked male lavender to? At one point you mentioned some of the babies being lavender so I’m thinking an unkinked lavender female. I wonder if the lavender mutation in corn snakes could have any biochemical similarities to the caramel mutation in ball pythons. If lavender corns do have a known tendency to kink it will be very interesting to hear from people that have been working with them for a while if they have had any success with outbreeding or any special incubation techniques to compensate.

I know this is the ball python forum, but wanted to share my own experience this year. I bred one male to three female corns this year, my first year breeding corns. Their morphs were Male Normal Striped (het amel, het anery), females: reverse okeetee, anery striped, and normal het motley, anery, amel. First year breeding for all but the reverse okeetee.

Results:
Reverse Okeetee: 21 eggs laid, 2 died during incubation due to shell rupture. 2 pipped on their own, the rest were manually pipped. Had 4 that were kept, 8 that were euthanized, and the rest were full term dead in egg. 100% deformed offspring deformities included conjoined twins, kinks, dome-heads, and misformed or missing jaws. (NONE of the parent snakes have kinks). Amongst the kinked offspring was one set of conjoined twins, joined from "sternum" to jaw.... shared the same heart and the same mouth.... the mouth had four sides, two tops, two jaws, four eyes. The heart jouneyed outside the body of the snakes, you could see it pumping the blood. This one was horribly mutated and awful to look at.... euthanized.

Striped female: 12 eggs laid, 6 were slugs. 1 died in incubation, 2 pipped and looked perfect, three were dead in the egg. The two that pipped looked normal on visual inspection. They both developed kinks in the first few days of life. One with only mild kinks is alive and eating, the other was the "temptation" feed for a kingsnake that didn't want to eat. (he ate)

Normal het Lots female: 10 eggs first clutch, 5 eggs second clutch with 2 infertile. First clutch 1 snake pipped herself, the others were manually pipped.... most had the same problems as the okeetee clutch, a few seemed normal to look and feel but died of umbilical strangulation while in the egg. The two that were kept were the only ones to make it out of the eggs once pipped. Neither have eaten,

So I had 46 eggs laid, 4 that pipped on their own, and 100% deformity rate. THREE of the 8 keepers have eaten, two of the nonfeeders are still with me, waiting their turn with my stubborn kingsnake baby.

So is it genetics? The females were from all parts of the universe and unrelated to the male. My kingsnake eggs were incubated in exact same conditions as the cornsnake eggs and have no kinks or problems.

I think it's environmental. (contaminated water, bad vermiculite, temperature, pesticides near the snakes or the feeder colonies, nuclear power plant malfunction in the area) The kinked babies I kept and that are eating will never be sold to anyone. A different male will be used for breeding next year and if I have no kinks I'll have no qualms about selling the babies. As soon as the kinked ones are old enough to breed, I'm going to try to breed them together. My guess, if the cause of their kinks/problems is environmental, and their reproductive systems aren't messed up to the point of sterility, they will have offspring that are perfectly normal (given the removal of the causative agent, whatever it might be). If those babies are normal, I will not label the parent snakes as being genetically deficient. IF the offspring of the kinked snakes ARE kinked, I will label them, AND their parent snakes as being unfit for breeding, and remove them from the breeding population.
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~Sasheena

by your results...all your eggs and attempts sucked pretty much.....

.......I breed alot of corns and inbreed lavenders,aztecs het for amel and lav,amel aztecs het lav,and opals....and mine are all related...usually siblings....

I have had bad years and I have had twins,dead in egg,no jaws,no eyes,deformed like you had....

but I have had alot of good years where all the babies were normal and all hatched fine more or less.....

........

ok......

your temps in summer and winter?
your temps for incubation?
your incubation medium is how wet??? and what is it??
your snakes are normal? thin? ,way too fat?

......thanx.....good luck

normal to thin corns at 82 degrees with no brumation incubate on dryer than normal vermiculite...you'll do better ....you have to.....

JYohe

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yep
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>>your temps in summer and winter?

Temps are pretty good.... summer temps 80's, I don't bother with heating pads, because it's warm enough here in AZ, I cool them in the garage in winter, for about 6 to 9 weeks, with the temps sometimes getting below 60, but not that frequently, they get heaters in spring and fall, ... end of october to middle/end of November, and again in late February through early April.

>>your temps for incubation?
The first clutches were incubated at around 82, with some normal highs (78 - 84) and lows (on the shelf) but the first clutches were exposed to some high temperatures (88 - 90) for less than 24 hours due to AC malfunction. The second clutch the one corn laid, however, was not exposed to the temperature spike, but the babies were still just as messed up, and the kingsnakes exposed to same temp spike weren't messed up.

>>your incubation medium is how wet??? and what is it??
Vermiculite, too wet is my ultimate guess as to the cause of the problem. I thought I took care of that problem, but still had issues with the later clutch. Next year I'll try it different.

>>your snakes are normal? thin? ,way too fat?

Normal, not thin (no protruding ribs), definately not fat, just well done. I have one fat snake, who is on a diet, but she's a kingsnake. I beefed her up for egg-laying, and she didn't lay eggs, just got bigger.

>>normal to thin corns at 82 degrees with no brumation incubate on dryer than normal vermiculite...you'll do better ....you have to.....

Yup, it can't get much worse than this year! Hopefully next year will be different. New male corns, new incubation method, no pesticides near the mice, bottled water for mice and snakes, etc etc. Changing everything
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~Sasheena

Couldn't you look at the results and say the male was the one comman factor with the abnomal hatchlings?

1. You have to realize I'm a statistician (that's my college degree) and I don't accept such a thing on this level of evidence, as there are WAY too many variables involved to make that sort of conclusion based on the evidence.

2. If I got 100% defects and it was genetic-based, that implies that one of the parent snakes is homozygous DOMINANT "Rotten" (for want of a better name, as they weren't all kinked, some were kinked, some conjoined, some jawless or jaw-messed-up)... If Hermes (the papa snake) was Homozygous Dominant Rotten, then all his offspring would come out Rotten (they did) and HE would have to exhibit traces of the "Rotten" gene himself. He does NOT exhibit ANY sign of ANY genetic or other deformity, in fact he is one superb looking specimen! I took him out the other day and looked at his forhead ... NOT domed. I felt along his spine for any tiny abnormalities of the spine, to see if he really WAS kinked... NONE. I looked at his jaw... perfectly formed. He is NOT flawed. NOW... is it possible that he is homozygous rotten without actually showing the trait, absolutely, I know my genetics, and know that some genes fail to express themselves, even when homozygous. BUT, if he was homozygous "Rotten" then that assumes that he was a spontaneous genetic mutation, or that he himself comes from a whole boatload of snakes with this genetic mutation problem. Since I got him from a very reputable breeder I doubt this as a possibility.

If he is NOT homozygous "rotten" then you would expect only 50% of his offspring to be "Rotten" at best, assuming it's a dominant mutation. If it's a recessive mutation, then you would have to assume that 3 female snakes, purchased from three corners of the country, all arrived carrying the same recessive "Rotten" gene, and expect only a 25% mutation rate.

THEREFORE, it is highly unlikely that it is genetic, based on the evidence at hand. Do I discount genetics? Nope, otherwise I might be selling the offspring that I have left, but for three corn snakes it's certainly NOT worth my reputation for the small amount of money I could get for the three good babies. So I'll wait, do some genetic breeding trials to see what I get, hopefully discover that some environmental factor (which CAN effect 100% of a clutch) is responsible, and hatch out perfect babies from my snakes.

ANYWAY, that's my thoughts on the matter. I don't claim to be an expert on genetics, that's my hubby's college degree, but I do claim to understand the art of statistics to a high degree.
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~Sasheena

wow, stats and genetics...you two are going to be a little self contained research team! I'm jealous!

Anyhow, my vote is for temps. I had bad luck with a new incubator and corns (or rather thermostate (Ranco, by the way) overheating. I lost an entire clutch immediately...they were pipping when the hotspot occurred and all died. Two more clutches were not as hot, but were on the borderline of too hot to hatch as viable offspring.

Some died during pipping...kinked. Others hatched and were kinked...having to be destroyed. Others were fine. What I found was the eggs that were mostly covered in the vermiculite medium were the ones that were kinked. The eggs sitting above the medium were o.k. It stands to reason that the medium held the temps at the higher level than the air temp, even after I removed them from the incubator.

A single clutch of burm eggs was also incubating in the same incubator, 10 days shy of hatch date. Eight eggs were mostly buried in the vermiculite (female laid one massive pile of 32 eggs that adhered before I found them). Seven of the eight pipped but two died shortly thereafter. Four are fine but have kinks at the very tips of the tail. The last has a kink 2 inches anterior to the cloaca.

I have never encountered kinks in any previous clutches from these parents.

K. Royer

>>1. You have to realize I'm a statistician (that's my college degree) and I don't accept such a thing on this level of evidence, as there are WAY too many variables involved to make that sort of conclusion based on the evidence.
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>>2. If I got 100% defects and it was genetic-based, that implies that one of the parent snakes is homozygous DOMINANT "Rotten" (for want of a better name, as they weren't all kinked, some were kinked, some conjoined, some jawless or jaw-messed-up)... If Hermes (the papa snake) was Homozygous Dominant Rotten, then all his offspring would come out Rotten (they did) and HE would have to exhibit traces of the "Rotten" gene himself. He does NOT exhibit ANY sign of ANY genetic or other deformity, in fact he is one superb looking specimen! I took him out the other day and looked at his forhead ... NOT domed. I felt along his spine for any tiny abnormalities of the spine, to see if he really WAS kinked... NONE. I looked at his jaw... perfectly formed. He is NOT flawed. NOW... is it possible that he is homozygous rotten without actually showing the trait, absolutely, I know my genetics, and know that some genes fail to express themselves, even when homozygous. BUT, if he was homozygous "Rotten" then that assumes that he was a spontaneous genetic mutation, or that he himself comes from a whole boatload of snakes with this genetic mutation problem. Since I got him from a very reputable breeder I doubt this as a possibility.
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>>If he is NOT homozygous "rotten" then you would expect only 50% of his offspring to be "Rotten" at best, assuming it's a dominant mutation. If it's a recessive mutation, then you would have to assume that 3 female snakes, purchased from three corners of the country, all arrived carrying the same recessive "Rotten" gene, and expect only a 25% mutation rate.
>>
>>THEREFORE, it is highly unlikely that it is genetic, based on the evidence at hand. Do I discount genetics? Nope, otherwise I might be selling the offspring that I have left, but for three corn snakes it's certainly NOT worth my reputation for the small amount of money I could get for the three good babies. So I'll wait, do some genetic breeding trials to see what I get, hopefully discover that some environmental factor (which CAN effect 100% of a clutch) is responsible, and hatch out perfect babies from my snakes.
>>
>>ANYWAY, that's my thoughts on the matter. I don't claim to be an expert on genetics, that's my hubby's college degree, but I do claim to understand the art of statistics to a high degree.
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>>~Sasheena

I know you say not the problem with your corns, but I had a temp spike while I was incubating my Eastern Brown snake eggs (Pseudonaja textilis) & the temp got to over 90F for at least a day, and every damn one of the hatchlings came out with tail kinks.

I still think the corns need outbred, (but what do I know) look how small "most" of them are compared to corns 15 or so years ago (yes I know some localities get larger than others).
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Chad Bachman

I thought the defects were temperature related too... but then the second clutch was born defective, and they weren't exposed to the high heat!

Yes, corns do need a certain level of outbreeding. I don't carry any "high end" (a sort of funny thing to say in the Ball Python forum!) corns. The ones I have are from all over:

1. Male Normal striped het amel and anery (both recessive genes were surprises). He came from the president of the local herp society.

2. Female Anery Striped also from the pres of the local herp society, sold to me as an unrelated pair.

3. Female Normal sold to me as het Motley, turns out she is het amel and het anery and shows no signs of being het motley, produced by a friend of Kathy Love in Florida.

4. (deceased now) Female "Reverse Okeetee" originally bred by Rich Z. She was het Anery also.

5. Male Hurricane Snow Motley, pos. het Hypo, sold to me by a breeder in Oklahoma

6. Female Anery het motley, het amel, het hypo (sibling to the male snow)

7. Male Anery bought from a petstore in California and given to me as a gift. (history unknown)

8. Female creamsicle from Florida

9. Male "normalsicle" sold to me from Florida

10. Female reverse Okeetee (daughter of #'s 1 and 4) ... took a while before she wanted to eat, but she ate without being forced or tease fed.... slight kinks and has a dome-headed.

11. Male Okeetee (son of #'s 1 & 4) ... very slight kink, acute feeding response and will to live.

12. Female Stripe het Anery poss. het amel (daughter of #'s 1 & 2), with slight kink, and huge will to live (she BITES).

I don't plan on breeding any siblings except for my experiment with the kinked offspring. I plan to keep the three kinked ones together and see what sort of offspring I get from them. I don't plan on selling those offspring until I'm really certain of their perfection. If they come out kinked, I've found that kinked corns are really great enticements for getting kingsnakes to start feeding! So while it could be heartbreaking to learn that it is genetic with a whole clutch or two of kinked babies, it won't be a waste, as those kinked babies will go to helping some other snakes survive.

Anyway, I see that I've been very off topic here in the ball python forum!

I also have ball pythons. 4 of them. One was a gift, and she's HUGE eating full grown ex-breeder rats every week. We were told she's female, but she does have some fairly pronounced spurs. Two others are long term captives, sold to me as females, that are pretty large too. I got them 9 months ago, got them de-infested of ticks and mites (and learned my lesson never to purchase WC Balls again) and they are very steady characters now. And one littler yearling that was sold to me as a male. All normals (one has "1968" on her side, so she's the "'68 Morph".) I plan on putting them together (the three "females" when I put my colubrids to sleep for the winter to see what they feel like doing. Breeding Ball Pythons sounds SO complicated compared to colubrids!
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~Sasheena

I'd go with the incubation problems theory... I doubt it's genetic. If get a higher hatch rate and they are all kinked, then u may be on to something

Outcross them with WC corns. I'm not sure why people don't use WC's to outcross more with corns, cuz alot of them are crappy producers. I guess the thought of getting $15-$20 for a morph is more important than getting the $10 for a healthy het, I know big loss there huh?
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Chad Bachman

Incubation temps are the result of the kinks in your lavender corns.

56 days to hatch corn eggs?? Seems a bit quick; your temps were very likely too warm. I hatch a few clutches every year at varying temps of 79-83F in 63-68 days.

At 83F and below I have NEVER hatched a kinked baby. And that includes a clutch this year from a ghost het motley to his anery motley het hypo MOTHER. No kinks in the clutch, thanks. Two clutches (26 and 22 hatchlings respectively) from this pair this year with NO kinked babies.

I encourage you to breed the same pair next breeding season and incubate the eggs at controlled temps of 77-80 at night and 80-83 during the day. Set up and calibrate your incubator a couple months ahead of any eggs. (My incubator is set up and runs year round.)

On a related note, in The CornSnake Manual Kathy Love quotes the incubation 'safe zone' as being 82-88 Farenheit. Well, since the book was published many folks have reported kinks in babies incubated above 85 for any period of time.

Overly inbred?? Did someone mention one-eyed albino boas?? .....lol

Best of Luck and Happy Herping.

BB

My pet theory is that kinks are caused by a vitamin deficiency. It's a known fact that vitamin deficiencies can cause birth defects in many vertebrates, from trout to humans. I'd be very surprised if snakes were different.

I'd like to know whether the incidence of kinked babies is higher in snakes fed frozen/thawed than in snakes fed mice that are fresh killed with food in the gut.

I'd get a good liquid multivitamin for birds (with vitamins A, C, D3, E, etc.) and put a drop inside a dead mouse once or twice a month for each breeder. Or feed a freshly hatched baby chick once or twice a month. No extra calcium should be needed as there is plenty in mouse bones.

Good luck.

Paul Hollander

>>I'd like to know whether the incidence of kinked babies is higher in snakes fed frozen/thawed than in snakes fed mice that are fresh killed with food in the gut.

Paul, you can read my sad tale elsewhere in this thread... my snakes are fed thumped (stunned or dead) live mice (or live fuzzy rats) raised on the premises in a good environment. So I am not thinking that there was vitamin loss due to freezing. I'll add vitamin supplements to my list of variables to change for next year, as I did not supplement this year, and if that is the cause, then for some reason my mice are not supplying the snakes with exactly everything they need. Would also explain my problems with corns versus kings... perhaps corns have a slightly different dietary requirement, thus the corn eggs turned deformed, and the king eggs did not.
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~Sasheena

I've had a couple of kinked hatchlings over the years including this year. The one common denominator for me has been where I incubated the eggs. I use the basic hovabator, not the turbo model with a fan. I set them up weeks ahead of time and keep adjusting them until I get a consistent 83 degrees. I also set them up in draft free areas, closets, corners of a room, etc. Areas that are not affected by outside temps, open windows, etc. I've never had a kinked hatchling come out of the incubator. Once I've got the incubators filled I start using the top shelf of one of my racks. This rack is setup with 4 inch flexwatt on a dimmer and in an area that is always affected by outside temps, evening drops, drafts, open windows, etc. I think it's perfectly fine to have an evening drop for the snakes but the kinked hatchlings have always come out of the rack. I believe it's the temperature fluctuations that are causing the kinks. I plan on building a new larger capacity incubator for next year. No more top shelf incubating for me.
Just a thought- consider where eggs are laid in the wild. Underground burrows, deep in logs/wood piles, etc. These areas offer consistent temps.

We have all heard that perfectly good babies can come from badly fungused eggs. This is true indeed. BUT,you knew a BUT was coming dintya?

Last summer we hatched eggs for ourselves and many customers. Two of our customers' clutches had a 'few' fungused eggs. In these two cases the fungused eggs either did not hatch but had kinked babies DIE (dead in egg) or hatched otherwise perfect but severely kinked babies. I mean a 90 degree bend or greater as severe. We euthanized those animals on a quality of life basis.

The 'un-fungused' sibling eggs hatched perfectly normal offspring.

I believe there can be many causes of kinking, genetic or otherwise. I can believe EVERY scenario presented in this thread with no single one being a definitive answer but instead ALL of them explaining that specific scenario.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

That's an interesting thought, before now I haven't thought about the impact of fungus on the egg problems I had this year.... this is what my results were (by fungus)

1st clutch to hatch: Severe fungus problems... most dead in egg, all kinked, some with domed heads and deformed jaws.

2nd clutch to hatch: NO fungus problem, no domed heads, small kinks, perfect jaws, 3 dead in egg, 2 hatched, one never ate and her kinks got worse daily, one ate voraciously, and has only very mild kinks.

3rd clutch to hatch: 19 eggs, two with fungus problems (dead in egg) all the rest deformed in one or more ways, two seemingly perfect, but with small kinks on close examination.

4th clutch to hatch: one egg with a fungus problem, died about 85% through incubation. One had calcium deposits on the shell: dead in egg full term, dome head. One was fungus free, and was the most severely deformed, manually pipped, put down immediately.

Kingsnake clutch incubated in similar conditions... two eggs died and began to mold early in incubation and also developed maggots... Bad eggs were removed (risky procedure) and the eggs developed for the rest of incubation without mold problems. One snake dead in egg, 9 hatched deformity free.
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~Sasheena