Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I have had what I thought was a male female pair of Azureus for a while now (the guy I bought them from said they were a sexed pair.) I'm sure they're both full grown (they're at least 1.25 or maybe 1.5 inches nose to vent.) But I'm beginning to question whether they are a male/female pair now.

There are only very subtle differences between body shape and toe pad size, and I have never seen them fighting so I'm starting to think that they are both males.

If anybody is willing to post picture of their sexed dart pairs (regardless of the species) that kind of shows the differences between the sexes, that would probably help me out in sexing mine. I don't have a digital camera. If I can get ahold of one, I'll post a picure of mine, so maybe you guys can help me out.

Thanks a bunch
~Aaron
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1.1.0 Sunburst Veileds (Oscar and Lizzie)
1.1.0 Azureus darts
2.3.0 Mantids
1.0.0 Albino Pacman (Grumpy)
2.0.0 White's Tree Frogs
0.2.0 Cats (Oreo and Doodle)

The species is actually very important for showing how to sex a species... there are different ways to do each (some are the females are larger, males have toepads twice this size on the front toes as the back, dark throat, body shape, and some you really can't tell unless you catch them in the act!).

D. azurues and most of the larger tinc morphs go by general size and toepad rule... females are larger than males, and on a male the toe pads on the front toes are 2x the size of the ones on the back for the most part (though I've seen some that don't follow this rule).

Female tincs and azureus fight each other usually. It sounds more like you have two females than two males.

Ugh, ignore the "i think you have two females" thing. Wasn't paying attention to what I was typing.

Check out the courting pair pics on the bottom of this page:

http://www.saurian.net/htm/azureus.htm

Have you heard any singing? Males do that, so if you hear that sneak up and look to see which one is doing the singing.

I have never heard either of them call. Is their call very loud? I've heard what it sounds like online. They are full grown but both have toe pads that are almost identical. One seems to be a little bit thinner than the other one. But I think this is because the other one is a little better of an eater. Ironically, the one that is slightly plumper has the the one that has the very very slightly larger toe pads (and I mean SLIGHTLY, definately not 2x the size of the other one.)

Now, the funny thing is that the guy who sold them to me about 5 months ago said that they were a male/female pair and that the male was calling. So I don't know if he was lying to get a better price out of them or what. After I received them in the mail, I asked him which one was which, and he said he couldn't remember.

But if they were both females, wouldn't they be fighting pretty often? I have only seen one sit on the other's head ONCE, and I think that was because they both were trying to sit in the pothos in the corner of the tank, once I removed those pothos, they never fought again.

I'm so confused!
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1.1.0 Sunburst Veileds (Oscar and Lizzie)
1.1.0 Azureus darts
2.3.0 Mantids
1.0.0 Albino Pacman (Grumpy)
2.0.0 White's Tree Frogs
0.2.0 Cats (Oreo and Doodle)

If you could post a picture we could assist you better. Pairs are obviously worth more, so maybe you were mislead, or maybe the breeder/vendor you dealt with didn't know his stuff very well. The differences between the sexes of azureus are fairly obvious, so it sounds like you do indeed have either 2.0 or 0.2. The easiest way to tell them apart in my opinion is by thier toepads. Males have pads that flare quite drastically, while the females don't flare much at all. They tend to be shaped more like a rose vase, a gradual flare. Another thing to look for is if one of them chases the other around the vivarium. Females will chase the males, stroking the males rear flank. This would be a sign that you probably do indeed have a pair. Doesn't sound like this is the case but is just something to watch for. If you want to hear if a male is calling listen after a good misting.

I don't have a digital camera, but I'll borrow someone elses and try to post a picture within a day or so.
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1.1.0 Sunburst Veileds (Oscar and Lizzie)
1.1.0 Azureus darts
2.3.0 Mantids
1.0.0 Albino Pacman (Grumpy)
2.0.0 White's Tree Frogs
0.2.0 Cats (Oreo and Doodle)

Hey Aaron,

Check out this link for alot of pic's of different dart frogs including D. azureus: http://www.frognet.org/. Go to the gallery link, on page 2 there is an album under the name of Bill J which has pics of both males and females. Explore the other galleries too, you may find some more. In my experiance the females were signifigantly larger then the males. This becomes more true after they each reach around eighteen months to two years old.

As for the males calling, it sounds like a quiet buzz, which lasts up to a couple seconds. You may be able to stimulate the male (if there is one) by misting, especially when you are in a low pressure system or thunder storm. You can also try seperating one of them at a time into a temporary (small, say ten gallon) set-up. If they are a pair, he may try to call his missing female back to him. You may have to give him a few days to get used to the new set-up before he calls. Make sure the temps stay around the mid 80's F. Too cool or warm and they won't mate in my experiance. Also, I've had males that have never called to my knowledge, but mated succesfully.

Good luck man,

Danny

Wow, Thanks! That was a great link. It's going to be rainy with low pressure tomarrow, I'll try to spray them a bunch during the storm tomarrow and see if I can get them to call.

After seeing those pictures I think I know what they are, but I'd like to see what you guys think when I post the picures tomarrow. That is IF I can get the camera to take a good picure :0)
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1.1.0 Sunburst Veileds (Oscar and Lizzie)
1.1.0 Azureus darts
2.3.0 Mantids
1.0.0 Albino Pacman (Grumpy)
2.0.0 White's Tree Frogs
0.2.0 Cats (Oreo and Doodle)

Excelent news guys, today I caught one of the frogs calling!

The frog that was calling is the one with SLIGHTLY bigger toe pads. But I don't know about the other one. When the frog was calling, the other one wasn't doing anything, it was just sitting under a potho leaf about 5 or 6 inches away.

If a male is calling, does the female typically respond in some way?

I don't think I've seen much as far as courtship goes. I think I saw the possible female rubbing the male's back today, but then she hopped away so maybe it was a same place same time kind of thing. Is the back rubbing in azureus pretty obvous or some what subtle?

Is it time to put in a breeding hut and see what happens?

Do I need to put more than one in to give them a choice, or do they care?

Again, I'll try to post some pictures by the end of the day tomarrow.
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1.1.0 Sunburst Veileds (Oscar and Lizzie)
1.1.0 Azureus darts
2.3.0 Mantids
1.0.0 Albino Pacman (Grumpy)
2.0.0 White's Tree Frogs
0.2.0 Cats (Oreo and Doodle)

Hey Aaron,

Congrats on hearing your male call! I'm sure it's something you'll allways remember.

I went over this post and you stated that one was slightly plumper; the one with slightly larger toe-pads. In my experiance, the females aren't ready to breed until they are noticably larger then the males. You may want to wait until she(?) fattens up a bit.

As far as the rubbing, yes it is obvious. I remember being in your position for quite a long time; not knowing what to look for. Once I finally saw it, there was no mistaking it. It is sometimes funny to watch, because it seems like the male is totally disinterested in her, allthough he is calling. It looks like the female is trying to force the male to move from his spot. Once he does start moving he will lead her all over the cage looking for a proper egg site. Because of this, I always used two huts (half coconut shells) to give them a choice. Under one I would place a clear petri dish and the other would be an opaque plastic lid from a yogurt container. Most times they used the opaque lid, which is nice because the black centers of the eggs are easier to see against it. The huts can really be anything that provides shelter from misting and light. I just used coconut halves for the asthetics. Make sure you place the hut(s) in a place where you can look in through the side of the cage, to avoid disturbing them too much. If you don't see the frogs out, don't use a flashlight to look into the huts. If you do, and they are in the middle of "something" they will almost certainly stop and exit the hut.

Hope this helps,

Danny

Thanks for helping me out guys. I think I have a pair. I've been giving them optimum conditions, and I've been feeding them well and misting frequently. Hopefully it will be just a matter of time now.
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1.1.0 Sunburst Veileds (Oscar and Lizzie)
1.1.0 Azureus darts
2.3.0 Mantids
1.0.0 Albino Pacman (Grumpy)
2.0.0 White's Tree Frogs
0.2.0 Cats (Oreo and Doodle)