Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A friend of mine is writing a book. In it she wants her villainess to kill her 'competition' by injecting her with snake venom. So she came and asked me what the likely outcome would be at post mortum...

I haven't a clue!

However, what did strike me is that perhaps, as an added degree of ingenuity, her vallainess could use some bizarre RF ven for the job. There's been some pretty impressive claims over the potencies of say, Boiga or Psammophine venoms of recent. Now, they tend not to do too much damage when they bite you due to small wet yields, crap delivery etc... However, suppose a substantial dose was collected from several snakes over several milkings and this was injected by syringe I assume the consequences could be pretty catastrophic.

Still doesn't help with creating a beleivable outcome though. I assume that snake venom would certainly be found in the cadavers system. But what kind of degree of identification could be deduced? And if they can't deduce the species involved would they put 2and2 together and look at the villainesses snakes...? Or would they just be disregarded as 'harmless'. I know that you'll mostly be Americans who read this, and that your legal system would behave differently, but it would be nice to get some ball park ideas nonetheless.

As the book is set in the UK the RF approach seemed nice as most of these are legal (if somewhat hard to come by) whereas 'propper' hots aren't.

I think she's going with the injected in the belly-button idea for delivery (is it true or an old wives tail that this wouldn't be noticed - assuming there was no localised reaction to give it away). Or would something like the scalp be better (hair to mask injection, close proximity to brain requiring a lower dose...).

Anyway, any thoughts or ideas on this would be welcome.

Regards, Lee.

Hi:

What a can of worms this opens. First the bottom line: The forensic toxicologist would find the venom and identify it down to the Species, unless the body was lying around decomposing for a few weeks. Any "fresh" cadaver would give up this secret. Forensic scientists live for this sort of case because it's not routine. Best bet is for her to contact a Forensic pathologist or Toxicologist for their thoughts since they are the experts. I'm speculating but I work with Forensic scientists when my job dictates.

Injecting in some of these "out of way" places would most likly be found too. When there is no obvious trama they go over every square inch of the body looking in unusual places. Besides, most of the venoms would leave some sort of tell-tail edema or vascular damage.

If she has to go with some sort of venom..try something from the insect world, like "Jack Jumper" ant venom. This too will leave plenty of evidence behind but you need a lot less venom because the cause of death would be Anaphylaxis. If the victim was sensitized to the venom and then exposed by aerosol no needle tracks would be present and the death may be chalked up to Anaphylaxis cause unknown.

Dr Fry; What do you think?

Best,

Al

Going the insect-based allergic shock would certainly be a nice twist and would be more diagnosible than a colubrid envenomation. If the authoress is insisting on going the colubrid route, diagnosis could be done if some clever lab developed an ELISA based venom detection kit like the ones we use here in Australia for the medically important elapid immunotypes.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
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Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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http://www.venomdoc.com

Make the victim a heroin user. Not necessarily some hardcore Scottish type but the trendy art appreciation sort of drug taker in Soho. Got the good gear and the clean needle. The villian mixes the dried venom into his stash.

'I choose not to choose life'

Dr. Fry;

What an evil plot twist that would make. Nothing like the victim poisoning themselves. I like the way you think!

Al

As a writer, my first concern is how she would get the venom injected in the first place. Since you mention the navel, I am assuming the victim would be asleep (probably nude) so there would be easy access to the injection site. If she awoke there would be postmortem bruises from her struggles.

I agree that the insect, (or better) the spider world, would be a better source. Something like mimicking repeated Recluse spider bites (with an ultra fine needle and multiple injections might do the trick. If the victim has a tattoo it would partly hide the discoloration from the injection so it would be harder to locate.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Thanks for the input! I think a relatively quick death is in order, will suggest the anaphylaxis route. Not sure about the recluse, we just don't get them in the UK and as far as I know the venom is slow (death by renal failure) and HIGHLY necrotic so the bite/injection site would be obvious.

I know that the techniques open to pathologists these days are considerable (although I take CSI with a nr. fatal pinch of salt!), but I beleive they would only investigate where the cause of death is suspicious. Anaphylaxis may not be suspicious and sounds ideal.

As for ID'ing a snake down to species level from venom in a cadavers system... not sure either. So much variation within species let alone between, and I doubt even the notorious Fry & Wuster double act have samples of everything on file for cross reference (no doubt they're working on it!).

Thanks again for all the ideas, I can now sound really intelligent and imaginative when I pas them off as my own lol.

Regards, Lee.

About the bite sites. that is why you go for a very fine needle. It you place the injections in close pairs (like in a real spider bite) it will be assumed that the victim was bitten by the real thing and the venom would back it up. Thus the tissue damage would be considered natural! I suggested mutiple fake bites (paired injections)to allow for the much larger amount of venom in the body. As to species...well anything with a bit more gusto!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Not even sure is I spelled that right.We were talking over a few cold ones about how to kill someone without getting caught.He said something about buying a emergency bee sting kit and using the liquid inside,Cant remember if it was adrenaline or whatever chemical in it that soaks strait into your skin and can carry whatever poison,communical
disease you want.I just tried to call the egghead but he is asleep.Im sure that's how the coversation went.lol..