Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Scott Michaels got me stuck on the thought of intersex (for pc sake) in snakes. Parthenogenesis could not have anything to do would that would it? I am having a little trouble understanding exactly what happens here and I was wondering if any person with a little time could add a post here. Anyway, I am going to the university libary to hopefully get more info on this.

In a nutshell...eggs are haploid (one set of chromosomes) as are sperm...to make a baby you mix'm up and get a diploid cell. Parthenogenesis is when the haploid cell is stimulated (chemically or physically) to become diploid. Basically in mitosis (division of a cell), in the S phase of the cell cycle the DNA replicate themselves which in normal cells then split off to each side of the cell and then the cell itself splits. Basically in endoreplication, all this happens except the DNA don't split off to opposite sides of the cell and the cell doesn't split.

In many insects (bee's, ants, wasps)...the haploid eggs develop into males while the diploid (fertilized) develop into females.

In the reptile kingtom, young that are made via parthenogenesis are all female and genetically identical to the mother.

Yippee...all that crap I learned in molecular genetics did pay off...now how is still to be determined.

matt

Clones !?!? (O-o)

btw:
I have seen this first hand with a pet scorpion once.

Or am i wrong and she just retained sperm (?) for over six months before giving birth ?
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3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Viper Boa
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Now I have read a lot on this and still do not fully understand this in snakes. I have heard that with snakes that parthenogenesis is NOT a clone of the mother and offspring is always a MALE thus impossible to be a clone. I have read about many types of parthenogenesis and have been following cases on KS for a while and have been trying to locate a diagram so I can see why offspring in snakes is male when this occurs. I read that is is because the two Z's (I think) cannot make a fertile egg but the entire concept is still not completely clear (for me) with this type of parthenogenesis in higher vertibrates like snakes. Thanks to those who responded so far but I am still stuck : ( and I should have been a bit more clear with the original question. Also, do we know of anything to suggest hermaphroditic "sydroms" in snakes and COULD it be possible for an animal as high as snakes to play a role as male and female to fertilize an egg? I know this may seem dumb to many people but I have not read a whole lot on this type of things with snakes so it is new and I am curious. Anyway, I will be back in the library tomorrow to read another book I have reserved strictly on parthenogenesis and I will see some journals as well.

Now you have me on a new tangent ! lol

Found this http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0837738.html
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3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Viper Boa
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Signature file edited for advertising [phw 9/26/04]

hermaphrodites cannot actually fertilize them selves....even in earthworms........and in higher vertibrates as you asked...the organs wouldn't be connected so sperm couldn't go from testes to ovary.........? ....hope this is correct....sounds good to me...

I personally do not believe in parthenogenisis.....in snakes......(maybe a little worm snake somewhere but not any pythons as we know of?).
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as for the scorpion......she held sperm too ......

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anyways..........

I still have to use males to breed my animals.......

....oh yea....someone says all babies would be male from partheno---.........?...there would be multiple babies......? you think all male?........

...........hm......mmmmmm
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yep
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"as for the scorpion......she held sperm too ......"

You are correct.
I just found out how the gestation periods were.
Six to eight months!
This means that she was in fact pregnant when i bought her.

So ...yeah..you could say she was holding sperm,lol.
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3.12 Ball Pythons
0.1 Viper Boa

Actually I believe tape worms can self fertilize...but you are right, MOST can't do it with themselves.

I was also wrong about the whole female thing...I forgot that it is opposite in reptiles than mammals...for mammals the female carries the X and male gives X or y... Since a female is XX and a male is XY, all mammals formed by parthenogenisis are female.

You may not believe it but i believe it does happen in snakes. I'd have to dig it up, but i remember reading an article on a retic/burm (can't remember which) virgin which produced a clutch.

I wouldn't say that it was impossible with the scorpion, but more than likely it was retained sperm. I have had tarantulas for many months produce an egg case without being around a male. Another possibility is if the scorpion had shed since it had last been with a male. If that is the case then there is no way she could have stored sperm as they lose the sperm with the shed. Interesting thread. Thanks guys!

Jeremy

type the following into google:

"facultative parthenogenesis" snakes

Only have the first two words in quotes, leave snakes by itself.

I believe that will provide many links.

I used to have a reprint of an article on facultative parthenogenesis. Unfortunately I lost it in a flood last year.

Schuett and Chizar are the two authors I remember and it was in one of the herp-specific journals.

Bisexual was a term used in the article but I can't remember if it applied to all cases of parthenogenesis in snakes.

It's an article you should track down. I need to get another copy myself.
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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.4 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

...not all types of facultative parthenogenesis leads to all-female offspring. For example, snakes may probe female but actually have testes, not ovaries. So these snakes may be a form of hermaphrodite. Which leads back to those snakes that probe shallow male or deep female....
Scott J. Michaels DVM
Serpent City

See ya'll in Tinley Park!!!!