Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just threw this out there over on the anaconda forum in response to a question about a stubborn feeder. I mentioned there that I'd like to get some feedback about this method, and afterwards I decided to post it here as well. I have from time to time over the years fed my snakes prey I procured from nature. I started doing this when I was in college after I spoke with a veterinarian who was also a big boa breeder. He said that there was nothing wrong with feeding captive snakes wild caught prey as long as the prey item wasn't poisoned or shot (even with steel shot). He told me that snakes do not contract diseases from mammals. He said road kill was even OK, as long it hadn't been sitting out in the hot sun for an extended period. I must confess that I have from time to time done this with no problems to speak of, though it has been a while since I last tried it. The last wild animal I fed a snake was a small squirrel that fell from a tree and died. I found it soon after it fell, offered it to a small burm, and he gobbled it right up. This same burm has eaten road kill squirrels and rabbits. Just curious if anyone else has ever done this or if this is even a recommended practice. FWIW, I also have used pre-killed wild rodents to get stubborn baby snakes to eat. For whatever reason, several snakes that wouldn't eat captive bred rodents would feed voraciously on wild mice/rats. I haven't done this a lot, but some, and with no problems so far. Just curious about your experiences.

RP

Well I haven’t heard of snakes not being able to catch diseases from mammals, but I think that they can get parasites from them. So you might want to be careful doing that, maybe freeze them in a deep-freeze for a few days, that should kill parasites. But I could be absolutely wrong so anyone else feel free on commenting

The purpose of which is what?
Why would you want to feed wild animals to a captive snake?

The vet made this suggestion in reference to feeding really big snakes really big prey items. He said the best way to get really big prey items inexpensively was to use fresh road kill. I would have never considered doing this had the vet not suggested it. A fellow herper who used the same vet fed his burmese dead rats that he trapped and killed himself when the local pet shops didn't have any jumbo rats. There was a time when the local shops only had mice and small rats, and the burm was in that stage when she wouldn't take rabbits but would tear up big rats. Without a supply of captive rats, he started trapping big rats at a nearby abandoned house. I now own this snake (bought her from him in '95), and she is a 14 foot, 180 pound animal that is healthy as a horse. To my knowledge, that's the only time she has ever eaten anything other than domestic rodents. I have never fed her any; as she has aged, she has quit taking dead stuff and only wants live rabbits.

RP

All that is fine and dandy but in todays electronic information age, those practices are completely unnecessary. I can point you to no less than 5 different people/places where you can get large prey items (20lb rabbits, pigs, etc) delivered to your door with no concern for your snake's health.
And personally, I dont care what the vet said, Im not feeding a tire-tracked possum to my beloved burms!

I don't know what vet you go to but he probably should not be a lic vet if he says its ok. Fist off what about yourself, catching somthing from road kill, second off how do you now if the rat or mouse or rabbit has poison on it. Second off I don't know if I would say the snakes can't get anything, and if a snake eats those and bites you, I think you are going to be pretty sick. My suggestion is you get rid of all your snakes, until you can feed them rats and mice and rabbits that captive bred before you kill your snake or get extremely sick from road kill or a wild animal.

Very interesting post. I have been told many times that I have issues, but not about this particular subject. The questions I have about this practice have nothing to do with me catching something from road kill. I really don't think that's a danger. Nor am I worried that I will contract some disease if I feed my snakes a dead squirrel and the snake bites me later. I am current on my tetanus shot, so no worries there.

My question was about whether or not someone out there had any real world experience with this practice, and whether or not the veterinarian was correct in his statement. Of the three posts so far, no one has answered the question.

This is not something I have done very often, and not recently, but I have done it, and with no problems. I keep my snakes in very nice cages, I spend lots of time with them, and I use them weekly in presentations to people of all ages. And I also have them on a steady diet of captive bred rabbits.

Though I do not make it a habit of doing this, my experience has been that the vet was correct. I am not interested in knowing if any others have had any experience doing this. That's all.

RP

The sentence in that last paragraph should have read "I AM interested in knowing if anyone out there has any experience with this practice." Sorry for the typing error.

RP

First off, let me begin by saying that I would be a hypocrite if I criticized you for this post or practice as I have done this very thing in the past. This was back in the 80's and I was quite considerably younger and thus not very bright. But I used to go out almost every night to the local deserts to "night drive" for rosy boas and numerous rattlesnake species and countless other indigenous snake species.... and while doing this would come across many many freshly killed kangaroo rats and desert jack rabbits and cottontails. Some were smashed and unusable, but a good percentage were dead as a result of wind turbulence tumbles under a passing car and were completely undammaged. I didn't take any of these for the first year or so, having plenty of money, having two food suppliers and breeding a lot of my own rats and rabbits at home, but one night a girl that often went with me pointed out all the "free food" on the roads and suggested taking some home. I was apprehensive about it and chose not to at first. But she took a bunch home and fed them to her pythons and boas. Time went by and the snakes all seemed perfectly fine, so I "saw the logic in it" (at that time) and began to pack glad bags on our snake hunts so as to always bring back oodles of food. It made sense to me then. Now,... this is NOT something I would do today. Certainly not. Not because anything bad ever happened. It didn't. But when I look back on this I seriously think I was taking serious chances with possibly transmitting unknown internal parasites to my snakes. I would never take this chance now, and not only because my snakes are "worth more", but because I care about them and just wouldn't do it. But on a last note about all that back then,... there was one very good thing that came of it and I feel it actually saved some snakes' lives, believe it or not.... But I had a bunch of imported ball pythons that were the most finicky eaters I had ever seen. They would actually die before accepting domestic rats or mice, chicks, etc. Some took on to gerbils, because I was lucky enough to know a gerbil breeder, but most JUST WOULDN'T EAT!,... Until I brought home those dead kangaroo rats. They mowed down on them and I honestly feel that this saved their lives. So,.. just a point to ponder as a positive note on this subject. In this scenario I would not be adverse to feeding your snake something of wild origin. But for a snake that willingly feeds on domestic rodents,... never. What for, you know? It isn't worth the risk.

>>I just threw this out there over on the anaconda forum in response to a question about a stubborn feeder. I mentioned there that I'd like to get some feedback about this method, and afterwards I decided to post it here as well. I have from time to time over the years fed my snakes prey I procured from nature. I started doing this when I was in college after I spoke with a veterinarian who was also a big boa breeder. He said that there was nothing wrong with feeding captive snakes wild caught prey as long as the prey item wasn't poisoned or shot (even with steel shot). He told me that snakes do not contract diseases from mammals. He said road kill was even OK, as long it hadn't been sitting out in the hot sun for an extended period. I must confess that I have from time to time done this with no problems to speak of, though it has been a while since I last tried it. The last wild animal I fed a snake was a small squirrel that fell from a tree and died. I found it soon after it fell, offered it to a small burm, and he gobbled it right up. This same burm has eaten road kill squirrels and rabbits. Just curious if anyone else has ever done this or if this is even a recommended practice. FWIW, I also have used pre-killed wild rodents to get stubborn baby snakes to eat. For whatever reason, several snakes that wouldn't eat captive bred rodents would feed voraciously on wild mice/rats. I haven't done this a lot, but some, and with no problems so far. Just curious about your experiences.
>>
>>RP
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

to Brian, Tango, Meretseger and Carmichael for discussing this with me in such an objective manner. This is something I have done in the past, but do not do now. I can afford to feed my snakes captive raised animals, and have for the last 12 years. However, in about 5 feedings out of hundreds (three squirrels, one rabbit and one bird), and none recently, I used prey procured from nature. My animals never suffered any ill effects at all, but it is not something that I did with any regularity and I would only do it today as a last resort if I had a snake that wouldn't eat captive bred rodents (such as with what Brian discussed). This was just something that I wanted to discuss with other herpers. I go to great lengths to make sure my snakes are happy and healthy, and would never do anything knowingly that would put my snakes (or the general public) in any danger. I am greatly in favor of responsible herping, and that includes feeding.

Thanks again for discussing this with me. I just wanted to see if others had had any experience with this practice, and what the outcomes were. Thanks again for the discussion. I enjoyed it -- the good and the bad!

RP

Some parasites will survive freezing. Most of us purchasing food over the net take comfort in thinking that frozen prey can't have parasites- that is what we are told at any rate. That is only partially true. Frozen prey purchased from feeder breeders probably has no parasites to begin with and freezing does kill a majority of the parasites that might be found in a breeding colony of feeder animals. The wild prey that might be taken by traps or roadkill could be infected by parasites that do not die in freezing temperatures, hence when thawed you will have a parasite-ridden prey animal to offer your reptile.
Your question is valid and complicated and until recently I was unsure of the impact myself. On one ocassion I fed a wild rabbit to a retic for no other reason than not to waste something that my cat killed. I was under the impression that freezing them for several weeks would kill off any parasites it could have. When my cat brought home a second rabbit a breeder that has been in the business longer than most of us have had snakes told me a well-respected vet had said otherwise. After a short research on the internet I found that there are several parasites that survive freezing temperatures- so freezing the host is of no use. I know a few people that feed roadkill to their snakes and the snakes seem very healthy. Personally- and it is a personal decision- the small risk is too much for me. My snakes are my family. You could raise an animal on frozen roadkill her entire lifetime and might never encounter a problem or you could offer that one parasite that could affect her or kill her. Parasites are the source for all sorts of problems in reptiles- many of the symptoms mimic other problems. With so little known about reptile medicine and so very few truly competent reptile vets accessible to the majority of snake keepers- the risk is too great imo.
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Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles
GiantFeeders

This has to do with roadkill, but unfortunately has nothing to do with Burmese pythons...
I used to volunteer for a nature center/raptor rehabilitation center. On the van rides up to the center they'd stop for any roadkill they'd find and toss it in the van. They fed this to the bald and golden eage at the center. I understand that this stuff might be 'natural' prey for these animals (except that bald eagles usually eat fish and golden eagles aren't found in Ohio), but no one was concerned about them getting parasites. If you think about it I guess that prey from an animal's natural habitat is MORE likely to carry a parasite designed to er... parasitize the animal, not less. Anyway, no one's yet named the disease that can get passed from mammal to reptile (or bird) that makes this all so scary. I'd personally stay away from racoons, though, I think they can carry a roundworm that infects humans. Squirrels, possums and groundhogs are considered people food in parts of the US.
If we were talking about feeding, say, frogs or fish to snakes, that's a different story, because cold blooded animals can very easily pass parasites to each other, which is probably how wild caught animals get these parasites in the first place (most of them have probably eaten lizards).
Freezing isn't really a bad idea though, just to be extra safe .
Also, I guess I could make a point about you taking food out of the mouths of poor starving turkey vultures.... But then again you're not 'killing' an animal just so it can be food, you're merely picking it up after an accident. Thorny, thorny ethical issues, eh?

Some of the comments towards Robert have been entirely unsubstantiated without any scientific evidence to show that wild caught or road killed prey is detrimental to the health of a captive burmese python (remember, a captive burm is a WILD animal that hasn't been exposed to the "wild" environment). I know a number of folks who have kept burms LONG TERM (30 years) on diets primarily of wild caught prey and road kill....tough to argue. Now, personally, I probably wouldn't feed this sort of diet to my captive snakes (due to the potential, even if its remote, of parasite infestation), BUT, this post is something that people should be willing to discuss in a slightly more intellectual manner. I know of many wildlife rescue facilities that keep large predatory mammals who rely on road killed animals to feed their captives (and they are beautiful and healthy animals). So, as far as I am concerned, we just don't have a lot of data to prove that a "wild" diet is harmful to a captive python. It may predispose the animal to a better chance of ingesting a parasitically ridden prey item but rather that just say it's bad, lets see the evidence. If anyone has any documented cases, I would personally be very interested in seeing it.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center - City of Lake Forest Parks & Rec

I will look for this and if I do owe an apology then I will give one, but I am a firm beliver that there is no need for it and should not be done. I look at that as the same as people who feed stray cats to their snakes. That is completly wrong. If you can't afford to feed it then don't buy it. Plus I was told cats can give things to snakes, but time will tell. But as I said I will look into this because I know deep down that it can't be good. Snakes in the wild yes eat this stuff but snakes in the wild also can have alot of parasites as well. But as I said I am going to search high and low on this one. And if I do owe and apology I will give it up. I just don't see the point. I know you want to feed your snake but if it was eating fine before it will eat fine again. Excpt in Brians case, Balls are a pain and since they where babies and wild caught, well there you have it. I am off to do some research, it might not be done for awhile but I will keep you posted each one I find.

Well, as a wise breeder once told me, "Different strokes for different folks." In other words, what may work for you and seem right, may not work for me and could seem totally wrong. But that doesn't mean because it doesn't work for you or you THINK that it's wrong mean that it is. Even if you do find evidence, if it works for him, what is the need in shooting his methods down just to satisfy your own ego? I personally don't see the point in that. If you think it's wrong, then simply don't do it, but leave everyone else to their methods and opinions. After all, if they can't have one, why should you be able to?

Last night I was thinking about that, and you are right, I guess its somthing that is new to me and I don't really understand, why, but everyone has their own methods, your right. Yes my ego is big, and my mouth always get me into trouble. But I still am very intrested in this, and want to look into it, because again I am intrested now.

I think everyone has a big mouth sometimes. I know my mouth has gotten me into trouble more times than i can count on fifteen hands!! That was just my opinion, but i would encourage you to do some research still, so you can be more grounded in your stance on it. I just felt you didn't have to be so hostile, but thankfully everyone is mature and you are very mature for your response. Thanks and i can see your opinion on this as well, but without evidence, there's no real arugment. I know i don't have any.

I wouldn't feed an animal found in a populated area, like the suburbs or urban areas. In addition to whatever risk of parasites there are, who knows what kind of chemicals and poisons the animal might have ingested (intentional stuff like rat poison, or unintentional through eating trash). Roadkill from remote areas would probably have less risk of chemical contamination.
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-audri
Webpage/Pics

To paraphrase a line from a favorite movie of mine:

"I don't have to look up a cow's a$$ to know there's beef inside"

Evidence, schmevedince. Would you risk your pet's well-being to save a few bucks? Like I said in the earlier post, there are plenty of safe, effective means to get prey items other than scooping them off the asphalt. If anyone wishes to possibly endanger their animal, go for it but I dont need evidence to know that I do not wish to do the same. He asked for opinions, not evidence.

You obviously didn't read my post, if you did, you would have responded in a much more intelligent manner. Check out my many posts on this forum about responsible burm husbandry and then try to please refute a single thing that I have said...you'll be hard pressed to do so. Yes, evidence is the key to science and husbandry is a science. I also made it clear that I would NOT feed my animals road kill but also said that I know of several long term burms who have been fed nothing but road kill....so what's your problem. Was I advocating the use of road kill in a burm's diet; of course not! Brian was right, this forum has gone down the tubes.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation

You asked for evidence. I dont have any evidence. Do I really need any? My statement was that I dont have to cut open a cow for evidence that there is beef inside. I know there is beef inside just like I know some roadkill can harbor bad parasites that _could_ cause an infection in an animal (snake or otherwise). Who cares about evidence of endangerment when there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to feed an animal roadkill?!

Name ONE good reason to feed roadkill...

Someone in my area is on the sheriff's roadkill deer callup list--for their pet cougar. According to what I've heard, (haven't actually seen it), that individual is quite healthy, even if it is something that most people(including some of us) wouldn't want as a pet.Then again, if it's kept right and doesn't hurt anyone, why not?