Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I knw that this is an overdone topic, and I hate it just as much as the rest of you all, but the hurricanes have messed up my plans for another research assignment. This is the quickest and easiest heated debate I know people have responses for and against. It is obviously going to be a paper about the venomoid argument, and I need as many responses as possible and any other research papers and assignments available will be greatly appreciated. The following is a simple survey. Feel free to respond however you wish, but the more detail about your experiences the better.

Thank you
Jonathan Tragash

P.S. I already have strong feelings on this topic to, but my professor says I need other peoples feelings for and against to make a valid argument.

1.Have you ever kept a venomoid? If so, what kind.

2. Would you ever keep a venomoid?

3. If so, what would the circumstances have to be and for what purpose would you use the snake for?

4. When someone says venomoid, what picture do you immediately see in your head?

5.Do you think that a venomoid should be handled as hot and kept in a locked cage?

6.Should a beginner ever train on a venomoid? Why or why not.

7.What precautions should be used when this surgery is taking place?

8.Should they be used for group demonstrations?

9.Any other comments or suggestions for my paper can be listed here. I greatly appreciate all of your responses and I know that they will help my paper.

1. No

2. Yes......

3. If the knitwitt that had it couldn't care for it, I would gladly give it a good home and proper care.

4. Long Hair and Tattoos (have you seen any pics of the people in the classified's? If so, you'll understand), and dollar signs.

5. Yes

6. No, it gives them a false sense of security, there is NO substitute for the real thing.

7. Precautions= A LICENSED vet, not doing the surgery in the living room of their trailer.

8. No

9. Not for anything else, but what used to be the stereotypes for hot keepers seems to now be for venomoiders. See 4 and 7
* I'm not against long hair or tattoos either.
Also, I've challenged many venomoiders to show proof that the surgery was done by a LICENSED vet and have yet to have ANYONE respond. Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?

1. Nope, and never will (unless it were donated to me, i.e. a rescue)

2. See above

3. N/A

4. A severely abused animal.

5. Yes, a bite from a snake with large fangs (i.e. a gaboon) can still cause infection from bacteria in their mouths...but no one should keep venmoids anyway.

6. No. Venomoids can cause a false sense of security for a beginner. If the snake gets out of control, you can always cheat and simply grab the snake without any real risk...you can't do that with a hot. Venomoids can create bad habits for the beginning keeper, and when they "graduate" to hots, they will pay for it.

7. Though I don't condone the surgery done by ANYONE, I believe that if they are to be done, they be done by a licensed veternarian who is trained and competant in performing the surgery. At least vets will use anesthesia and prescribe pain meds.

8. There are many, many people who perform educational shows with venomous snakes. Venomous snakes can be displayed in secure cages for all to see and none to touch. Non-venomous snakes are for touching. People shouldn't get accustomed to "petting" rattlesnakes and cobras.

9. Venomoid surgery is cruel and unneccesary, and is a real black mark on the face of venomous herpeteculture. If you won't invest the time to acquire the skills to safely and responsibly maintain the animal, then don't get one! Pretty simple.

8.

Ok..

1)Haven't and never will (unless it's a rescue).

2)See above.

3)See above.

5)A creature that is impotent (lacking what nature gave it to survive).

5)YES! Treating a venomoid like it is harmless promotes the psychological picture of harmlessness that can interfere with a person's normal Threat Recognition" when faced with a different snake of the same species. With snakes of this "normaly" lethal nature,a slip could have serious consequences.

Note: for those who think this is unlikely there has been some very interesting research done involving "signals" we associate with threat and safety. Part of the work for example; was to expose subjects to green "Stop" signs and red "Go" signs and then time the responses compared to properly colored signs. the results showed mommentary confusion from the "mixed" signals. The same principle applies here.

6)NO! See above.

7)I am not a doctor so ....

8)NO! Once again it establishes an image of Harmlessness which unfortunately can result in a small child getting the wrong idea with-lethal results.

Small children learn by watching us as to what is dangerous or not. When you say a snake is dangerous and then handle it like it is not you are sending a mixed signal to the child. (and please no comments about supervising kids).

I worked for a Zoo. Many parents let their kids pretty much roam unsupervised...and they get their hands into lots of places where they shouldn't.

9)I view venomoiding the same way as I do bobbing a dog's tail or de-clawing cats. it has only one purpose. Altering nature for man's convieniance.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

1.Have you ever kept a venomoid? If so, what kind.
NO

2. Would you ever keep a venomoid?
YES

3. If so, what would the circumstances have to be and for what purpose would you use the snake for?
IF I THOUGHT A SNAKE WAS TOO DANGEROUS FOR MY HOUSEHOLD.

4. When someone says venomoid, what picture do you immediately see in your head?
CAVED IN HEADS

5.Do you think that a venomoid should be handled as hot and kept in a locked cage?
ABSOLUTLY

6.Should a beginner ever train on a venomoid? Why or why not.
NO. THEY WILL UNDOUBTEDLY TREAT IT AS A NONVENOMOUS, AND THAT WILL NOT TEACH THEM ANYTHING. THE SAME REASON I AM AGAINST BB GUNS. THEY ARE NOT TREATED AS A GUN AND KIDS SHOOT EACH OTHER WITH THEM.

7.What precautions should be used when this surgery is taking place?
I ALSO BELIEVE THE PROCEDURE SHOULD BE DONE ONLY BY A "REAL" VET.

8.Should they be used for group demonstrations?
I THINK DEMONSTRATIONS IS A GOOD SAFE REASON TO HAVE VENOMOIDS

I HAVE STATED THIS BEFORE. I PERSONALY BELIEVE THAT MANY MANY ANTI-VENOMOIDERS ARE SIMPLY AFRAID OF LOOSING THE "COOL STATUS" I REALY DON'T EXPECT ANYONE TO AGREE WITH ME AND DEGRADE THEMSELVES,BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF "NORMAL" PEOPLE LOOK AT US AS WEIRD, STRANGE, AND DEFINITLY DIFFERENT. EVERYONE LIKES TO BE CONSIDERED DIFFERENT AND FEARLESS. WELL, IF THE AWE INSPIRING VENOMOUS SNAKE IS SUDDENLY DISARMED, IT IS NOT NEARLY AS COOL. ALL OF A SUDDEN, ANYONE CAN HAVE A COBRA, RATTLESNAKE, OR MAMBA. THIS MAKES ALOT OF US FEEL LESS IMPORTANT OR LESS OF AN ENIGMA TO THE GENERAL POPULATION. IT SOMEHOW TAKES SOMETHING AWAY FOR THE HOBBY AND THE INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS DEVOTED HIMSELF TO THE VENOMOUS SNAKE. ALMOST EVERY "DOMESTIC" ANIMAL HAS BEEN ALTERED TO MORE EASILY "FIT IN" TO OUR WAY OF LIVING. WE CUT OFF DOGS EARS, TAILS, AND TESTICLES. WE DO THE SAME TO CATS AND WE TAKE THIER CLAWS. ALL OF THE FARM ANIMALS HAVE BEEN ALTERED. NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT THESE ANIMALS, BECAUSE CHANGING THOSE ANIMALS DOSEN'T CHANGE THE OWNERS STATUS AND FEELING OF SELF WORTH. I HAVE NEVER OWNED A VENOMOID, BUT I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THEM AS LONG AS THE SURGERY IS DONE PROPERLY BY A LICENSED VET. STAY SAFE AND SMART. CHRIS

Not trying to flame anyone, but the question posted above needed to be addressed.

In reguards to the "coolness" of keeping Hots that are Hot. Some folk probably do keep them for status (pity that they need it for such). But then aren't Venomoiders dealing from the same deck? Only in their case it is making that "status" to be held by untrained people, who only collect for that "Notoriety".

Keeping venomous has cost me relationships and presented me with problems with my own family and neighbors. And of course the legal probs. There are the permits, inspections etc... Tell me; What's cool about being considered Weird?

For a lot of us it is not about being "cool". It is a fascination and desire to learn and observe these animals-as nature made them. What can you learn from a venomoid? Venomoid keepers are hardly there for the science, they are just buying a pet they can handle and show off.

My "Status" snakes are my pair of South Fla Mole Kingsnakes. Now there is a rare (non venomous) and beautiful couple of animals...Those I brag about.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I don't really get the arguments against venomoids. Its cool to have a king cobra that you can pick up and wrap around your neck. As far as the scientific end of it is concerned, you learn a lot more about an animals behavor and personality when you can handle them freely. If you want to observe natural interactions then you should observe them in the field not in your living room. Venomoids are good way of keeping and handling poisonous snakes in captivity without getting killed. As far as the arguments for treating a venomoid like a venomous snake is concern the problem there is not that people will treat a venomous snake like a venomoid, but why have a venomous snake at all, they should all be venomoid and that problem is eliminated.
We are required to have our cats or dogs spayed and neutered, so why not have our cobras and rattlers de-venomized? Personally I enjoyed shooting at my friends with a BB gun when I was kid, it was the whole point of having a BB gun and not a real gun. Don't get me wrong I am not against venomous snake keeping or gun keeping, its just that reasons for having a BB gun and Venomoids are different then keeping venomous snakes and real guns, and I don't see the conflict.

Rick, I have a cousin who does not have a left eye due to a BB gun. It's not cool to shoot BB guns at people.

It is also not cool to wrap any King Cobra around your neck. What is the point? Sounds like pure EGO. I personaly just find it stupid.

You can't learn about snake behavior very well by handling them since this is a unnatural act, unlike observing them when they are free moving (and yes, Preferably in the wild-but we can't have it all). By the way, I don't keep venomous in my living room....That is being extremely careless. Mine are in a secure room.

To advance your arguement further...I suppose you feel the teeth should be pulled from all dogs (to eliminate people from being bitten). That logic just plain doesn't make sense, does it. As does creating unnatural snakes just so they can be handled. What happens when small kids go to the Zoo or a show and see this and then go out into the wild and find the real (untampered with) thing?.

Simply put. Like them or not-Venomous Snakes are DANGEROUS. Anything that sends a contrary message such as public handling of such animals As 'harmles venomoids) sends the wrong message about what these animals really are.

People who want venomoids are;

1) The people who make money off the surgery and sales.

2) The people who think it is so "Cool" to handle a dangerous snake, that they have surgery done on it to render it "Harmless" rather than take the training to do so safely...Or (worse yet) lack the maturity to just be content to see these animals in a Zoo or under supervision of a trained (pref. Licensed) handler.

I hope this clarifies it for you.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

A bite from a non venomous , venomous or venomiod can and has caused infections. All snakes should be handle with respect for what they can do to you. A gaboon that is venomiod caused a life threating infection in one keeper. Fangs are like needles and can carry all types of infection causing nasties.

Jim Harrison

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. It is greatly appreciated.